Shamshir identification

TVV · 14th December 2021, 04:52 PM

To me this looks like an Omani/East African saif. The way the silver wire is braided under the guard is characteristic. The floral motive in the guard also looks Omani. And while certain parts, like the pommel cap may be be replacements to the originals, it very much looks like a 19th century antique to me. What are the dimensions?

Teodor

Garlot · 14th December 2021, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Garlot.

Welcome to the forum! Let us know if you have any problems navigating the site or with posting pictures, etc.

I'm thinking that you have a Syrian saif made in the last 30-40 years, but this is not my area of collecting and I defer to the opinions of our Eastern experts.

Ian.

Thanks! I've been following this forum for a while but I decided to join since I have begun starting a collection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I agree with Ian.

In my opinion too, this is not a shamshir but a saif. But since names are rather relative, you can take this as you want.

In my opinion a shamshir has a long, narrow and very deeply curved blade of mostly triangular cross-section.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamshir

Yours has a broader blade with a complex, fullered cross-section and a moderate curvature. I suspect the blade is of European origin (German/Prussian model 1811 Blucher ? or maybe even English pattern 1796 Light Cavalry Sabre ? ).

The hilt is very similar to the classic Persian hilts but not quite...
It may be Persian, but more likely Syrian. The wire wrapping of the hilt is less relevant as it probably has been added later to protect a damaged hilt.

PS: What material are the scales of the hilt made of? From the photos they appear to be resin.

I should have used saif considering that's the word I'd use in my arabic mother language, but from my limited knowledge saif in the collection world refers more to stuff like omani kattara and arabian nimchas, although I'm aware it just means sword and is used for everything from kilijis to kaskaras among arab speakers.

I've seen wire or chain wrappings on a lot of similar swords with a variety of hilts, from reading another thread I think they're a feature common among swords used within arabic areas in the middle east.

The seller has said the hilt is elephant ivory, is there a way to make sure?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

To me this looks like an Omani/East African saif. The way the silver wire is braided under the guard is characteristic. The floral motive in the guard also looks Omani. And while certain parts, like the pommel cap may be be replacements to the originals, it very much looks like a 19th century antique to me. What are the dimensions?

Teodor

89-90 cm with the hilt, 77 cm for only the blade, 3.3 cm wide, don't have a tool to measure the thickness but it's about 5 mm thick at the base and gets very thin at the end, maybe 2 mm.

mariusgmioc · 15th December 2021, 07:45 AM

How to check wheteher is ivory or not?!

The colour, with orange hue is quite unusual for ivory. Even old and much handled ivory does not usually get that hue. It becomes yellowish but more towards tan or even coffee. Also the chips shown by the red arrow make me think it is resin.

The best way to identify elephant ivory is finding the Schreger lines. They are usually found in the areas shown by green arrows. However, this requires some experience. Check the internet and have a look at the different photos of Schreger lines:

https://www.google.nl/search?q=schre...EK&sclient=img

However, the Schreger lines are characteristic ONLY to elephant and mammoth ivory. Walrus, marine and hippopotamus ivory do not show Schreger lines.

Besides that, there are more destructive methods that I don't recommend, like rubbing it quickly with very fine sandpaper and check it whether it smells like "dentist" or like plastic, or applying a red hot needle to check whether nothing happens (ivory) or it starts melting (resin - albeit I have encountered resins that do not melt when tested this way).

A.alnakkas · 19th December 2021, 02:54 PM

Omani silverwork. Those tend to have imported blades. Scabbard looks like a later addition.

15th December 2021, 07:45 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	How to check wheteher is ivory or not?! The colour, with orange hue is quite unusual for ivory. Even old and much handled ivory does not usually get that hue. It becomes yellowish but more towards tan or even coffee. Also the chips shown by the red arrow make me think it is resin. The best way to identify elephant ivory is finding the Schreger lines. They are usually found in the areas shown by green arrows. However, this requires some experience. Check the internet and have a look at the different photos of Schreger lines: https://www.google.nl/search?q=schre...EK&sclient=img However, the Schreger lines are characteristic ONLY to elephant and mammoth ivory. Walrus, marine and hippopotamus ivory do not show Schreger lines. Besides that, there are more destructive methods that I don't recommend, like rubbing it quickly with very fine sandpaper and check it whether it smells like "dentist" or like plastic, or applying a red hot needle to check whether nothing happens (ivory) or it starts melting (resin - albeit I have encountered resins that do not melt when tested this way). Last edited by mariusgmioc; 15th December 2021 at 08:42 AM.

14th December 2021, 04:52 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	To me this looks like an Omani/East African saif. The way the silver wire is braided under the guard is characteristic. The floral motive in the guard also looks Omani. And while certain parts, like the pommel cap may be be replacements to the originals, it very much looks like a 19th century antique to me. What are the dimensions? Teodor

19th December 2021, 02:54 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Omani silverwork. Those tend to have imported blades. Scabbard looks like a later addition.