Question about black mandau

Godfried · 19th November 2021, 09:17 AM

Hi Kai,
Your explanation got me thinking and I scratched a tiny bit off the back of the sword. Indeed, "bare steel" emerged. Then wonder why Dayaks want to blacken the steel. At least it didn't happen in the Netherlands because I bought this sword at a foreign auction. For the time being I think that it was then glazed and blackened in Borneo itself because the pamor looks much worse than, for example, the blackening of the pamor on Javanese and Balinese krisses. the steel and color on the back looks the same as the front i.e. some areas of the blade are quite rough while most of the blade is polished smooth. I still have a question about the sheath. Is this the "Aso" or maybe "Mata Kalong" or some other stylized creature? Thanks for your explanation.

David · 19th November 2021, 10:25 PM

Others have addressed other aspects of your post, but not your remarks about meteorite.
Firstly, if Dayaks used meteorite in their blades (which i am not aware of), it would not be in amounts large enough to forge an entire blade from it. Firstly meteorites are rare to begin with. Iron bearing meteorites are even rarer and the right meteorite that lends itself to forging rarer still. You do not find meteorite steel. Steel is an alloy of iron with carbon. Iron bearing meteorites would probably appear black, but they would not remain so when you forge them. So there is no reason why a black blade would be a sign of steel made from meteorite. I am not aware of Dayaks traditionally darkening their blades, but this may well have been done by a collector outside the culture who hoped to show off the lamination of this blade by etching it with some sort of warangan substance.

ariel · 19th November 2021, 10:41 PM

In a Russian book by the doyen of Russian bladesmiths and damascus steel makers Mr. Arkhangelsky, he describes his attempts to forge a blade from a meteorite. It crumbled almost immediately, and things did not get better with multiple attempts to modify forging condition. Eventually, he had to take garden variety steel and add minute fragments of meteorite. AFAIK, Javanese smiths used tiny amounts of meteorite from Prambahan for their most valuable krises.

Godfried · 19th November 2021, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Others have addressed other aspects of your post, but not your remarks about meteorite.
Firstly, if Dayaks used meteorite in their blades (which i am not aware of), it would not be in amounts large enough to forge an entire blade from it. Firstly meteorites are rare to begin with. Iron bearing meteorites are even rarer and the right meteorite that lends itself to forging rarer still. You do not find meteorite steel. Steel is an alloy of iron with carbon. Iron bearing meteorites would probably appear black, but they would not remain so when you forge them. So there is no reason why a black blade would be a sign of steel made from meteorite. I am not aware of Dayaks traditionally darkening their blades, but this may well have been done by a collector outside the culture who hoped to show off the lamination of this blade by etching it with some sort of warangan substance.

I thought of meteorite steel because the book of "the pagantribes of Borneo Volume 1" by Charles Hose on page 194 states that "thirty years ago nearly all the iron worked by the tribes of the interior was from ore found in the river beds and possibly from masses of meteoric iron "
But as I already noted, I think that after reading the posts, nijn mandau is just white steel and then blackened.
Whether this was done by dayaks or by a collector will never be known.
I do want to mention that A.Hendriks remarked in 1842 that the "doessonsch iron" is divided into 2 types. "bassie-hitam" black iron and "bassie-wadja" steel iron.

asomotif · 20th November 2021, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godfried

Is this the "Aso" or maybe "Mata Kalong" or some other stylized creature? Thanks for your explanation.

Hello Godfried,

Another stunning mandau. Thanks for sharing.
The figure on the scabbard is different from what I have seen before.
Although the variation in carvings seems endless.

I think that is an aso figure. His head on the bottom side, and the mouth towards the left side.

But it also looks a bit like a prawn motif.

Best regards,
Willem

Bob A · 20th November 2021, 11:38 PM

Would there be any reason to think that the "blackening" of the blade was intended to function as a rust preventive, similar to the bluing or browning of Western firearms?

Godfried · 21st November 2021, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Would there be any reason to think that the "blackening" of the blade was intended to function as a rust preventive, similar to the bluing or browning of Western firearms?

Could be but usually put with it then in the fat or oil. I personally think it was done in Borneo itself. If you are a european collector why would you blacken that mandau when e.g. the handle is very finely carved and, as you can see in the photo, complicated rattan buttons, etc., you have "raped" as a collector, in my opinion, a beautiful sword.

Battara · 21st November 2021, 09:55 PM

I'm still wondering if the former owner etched this in this way to bring out the brass inlays on the blade surface. When Balinese do this and there is nickel present in the blade, the nickel stands out prominently. Perhaps the former owner who got this to the auction market thought this was common throughout the entire Indonesian peninsula and would enhance the value by bringing out the inlays making it more attractive (if not incorrect).

I've seen this a lot on other pieces, for example, Moro kris being etched in a Javanese fashion. Looks great to some, but destructive and incorrect, and a mess that I have had to repair in the past.

Godfried · 22nd November 2021, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm still wondering if the former owner etched this in this way to bring out the brass inlays on the blade surface. When Balinese do this and there is nickel present in the blade, the nickel stands out prominently. Perhaps the former owner who got this to the auction market thought this was common throughout the entire Indonesian peninsula and would enhance the value by bringing out the inlays making it more attractive (if not incorrect).

I've seen this a lot on other pieces, for example, Moro kris being etched in a Javanese fashion. Looks great to some, but destructive and incorrect, and a mess that I have had to repair in the past.

The previous owner brought 34 Mandau's to Czerny's auction in Sarzana Italy. This was the only mandau that had the description PAMOR. That is all I know.

Godfried · 21st November 2021, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

I think that is an aso figure. His head on the bottom side, and the mouth towards the left side.
But it also looks a bit like a prawn motif.
Best regards,
Willem

Goeie dag Willem,

I understand you are thinking of the crab motif because both the sheath and your drawing have "teeth" on one side. However, I also go for the Aso motif because (as far as I know) the crab motif is used more on Ikats than on mandaus. The tattoo motifs of the Aso below also look a lot like the carving on the sheath. Thank you, you have hopefully set me on the right track.

19th November 2021, 09:17 AM	#1
Godfried Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Den Haag Holland Posts: 27	Hi Kai, Your explanation got me thinking and I scratched a tiny bit off the back of the sword. Indeed, "bare steel" emerged. Then wonder why Dayaks want to blacken the steel. At least it didn't happen in the Netherlands because I bought this sword at a foreign auction. For the time being I think that it was then glazed and blackened in Borneo itself because the pamor looks much worse than, for example, the blackening of the pamor on Javanese and Balinese krisses. the steel and color on the back looks the same as the front i.e. some areas of the blade are quite rough while most of the blade is polished smooth. I still have a question about the sheath. Is this the "Aso" or maybe "Mata Kalong" or some other stylized creature? Thanks for your explanation. Attached Images

19th November 2021, 10:25 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Others have addressed other aspects of your post, but not your remarks about meteorite. Firstly, if Dayaks used meteorite in their blades (which i am not aware of), it would not be in amounts large enough to forge an entire blade from it. Firstly meteorites are rare to begin with. Iron bearing meteorites are even rarer and the right meteorite that lends itself to forging rarer still. You do not find meteorite steel. Steel is an alloy of iron with carbon. Iron bearing meteorites would probably appear black, but they would not remain so when you forge them. So there is no reason why a black blade would be a sign of steel made from meteorite. I am not aware of Dayaks traditionally darkening their blades, but this may well have been done by a collector outside the culture who hoped to show off the lamination of this blade by etching it with some sort of warangan substance.

19th November 2021, 10:41 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In a Russian book by the doyen of Russian bladesmiths and damascus steel makers Mr. Arkhangelsky, he describes his attempts to forge a blade from a meteorite. It crumbled almost immediately, and things did not get better with multiple attempts to modify forging condition. Eventually, he had to take garden variety steel and add minute fragments of meteorite. AFAIK, Javanese smiths used tiny amounts of meteorite from Prambahan for their most valuable krises.

20th November 2021, 11:38 PM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	Would there be any reason to think that the "blackening" of the blade was intended to function as a rust preventive, similar to the bluing or browning of Western firearms?

21st November 2021, 09:55 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I'm still wondering if the former owner etched this in this way to bring out the brass inlays on the blade surface. When Balinese do this and there is nickel present in the blade, the nickel stands out prominently. Perhaps the former owner who got this to the auction market thought this was common throughout the entire Indonesian peninsula and would enhance the value by bringing out the inlays making it more attractive (if not incorrect). I've seen this a lot on other pieces, for example, Moro kris being etched in a Javanese fashion. Looks great to some, but destructive and incorrect, and a mess that I have had to repair in the past.