Austrian hussar sabre for ID

Jim McDougall · 26th October 2021, 04:15 AM

Ausjulius, you have put some deep thought into this and I appreciate your perspectives. However, I began studying this curious phenomenon back in the 90s, and reached the museums holding the swords Wagner (1967) depicted in his drawings. I wanted to confirm that these notches did exist in the actual sword blades, which they did.

In my communications with all of the officials contacted, none had any adequate idea on the notches, in fact seemed surprised there was any attention to the feature in the first place.
The only responses did somewhat echo Wagner's surmising these were to worsen wounds etc.

In various conversations with masters of arms in various regions, none of course had any thoughts on the case which was outside the bounds of regular fencing.

The only cases I found, as I have mentioned in my previous posts, these ONLY occurred on numerous example of Austrian swords, and this was by no means a usual or common practice of notching. The only exception I found was the suggestion of a couple of French hussar sabers having this. It should be noted that French hussars often closely followed Hungarian/Austrian in the 18th c.

So if these notches were such a prescribed practice for utility, worsening wounds or such pragmatic purposes.......why not on ANY other swords of ANY other countries?

Hooks, barbs etc. may be common on axes, polearms but NOT the kind of thing you would see on a standard combat side arm like a sword.

The notches are too shallow to effectively hold things picked up from the ground, unless perhaps to snag an item of clothing or material.
Why would a horseman compromise his blade for such nonsense?

The 'yelman' was NEVER intended for thrusting or any such purpose with the blade. The Poles called this feature colloquially 'the feather' , and its purpose was to add weight and momentum to the slashing cut. This has been made clear to me by sources who were Polish military history authorities, and the same purpose seems logically applied to other blades with this feature.

Sword 'catching' features are typically presumed as pragmatic explanation as in actual combat, such a 'catch' would seem almost surprising and coincidental.

In the thrust, which in combat was nearly always fatal, why would a wound need to be worsened, and with the potential of the blade becoming lodged in the victim?

These are just the views I have come up with in the years I've studied this, but I really appreciate input and exchange of ideas. Typically interest in this has been nominal at best, so thank you.

JT88 · 29th October 2021, 01:45 PM

Found some information on Pottenstein for y'all!

Source: https://www.blankwaffenforum.de/inde...&threadID=4120

"Pottenstein in the Triestingtal in Lower Austria

so a Pottensteiner blade , originated around / or. before 1780 Empress MT in

particularwanted topromote Austria as a closer location through its own production facilities for weapons (blanks and firearms) and supported corresponding initiatives. This resulted in several companies, of which Pottenstein was one of them. The saber blade factory in Pottenstein an der Triesting offered when it was relocatedfrom Sollenau in 1764/65 (founded there by Adam von Metzberg in 1754 ) under its new owner

Melchior Steiner from the new location ideal conditions:
relatively convenient proximity to Vienna , the flowing water of the Triesting, which does not freeze in winter and plenty of wood available for production.
In 1766 28 workers were already employed in the Pottensteiner saber blade factory , the annual production amounted to 12,000 blades ( also for pallasche and hussar sabers) , which became known far beyond the Austrian hereditary lands under the term "Pottensteiner" --- and probably still are . 1769
The company expanded and not far from the old factory was given another property assigned by the Merkenstein rulers , where an even newer blade factory was built. In 1786 Steiner's nephew, Melchior Ritter von Steiner, took over the business. In 1800 there were about 50 workers , only then did the slow decline come : in
1811 (great inflationary period in Austria, Napoleon) only 7 workers left , in 1814 (Napoleonic period) almost shutdown.
After Melchior von Steiner's death in 1837 , the plant was finally liquidated in 1841and converted into a cotton mill.
I ask for your support in resolving my questions about the saber - thank you!"

awdaniec666 · 30th December 2021, 09:29 PM

In case you wonder how these gentleman looked like

30th December 2021, 09:29 PM	#3
awdaniec666 Member Join Date: May 2021 Location: Central Europe Posts: 174	In case you wonder how these gentleman looked like Attached Images Last edited by awdaniec666; 30th December 2021 at 09:37 PM. Reason: change of content

26th October 2021, 04:15 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ausjulius, you have put some deep thought into this and I appreciate your perspectives. However, I began studying this curious phenomenon back in the 90s, and reached the museums holding the swords Wagner (1967) depicted in his drawings. I wanted to confirm that these notches did exist in the actual sword blades, which they did. In my communications with all of the officials contacted, none had any adequate idea on the notches, in fact seemed surprised there was any attention to the feature in the first place. The only responses did somewhat echo Wagner's surmising these were to worsen wounds etc. In various conversations with masters of arms in various regions, none of course had any thoughts on the case which was outside the bounds of regular fencing. The only cases I found, as I have mentioned in my previous posts, these ONLY occurred on numerous example of Austrian swords, and this was by no means a usual or common practice of notching. The only exception I found was the suggestion of a couple of French hussar sabers having this. It should be noted that French hussars often closely followed Hungarian/Austrian in the 18th c. So if these notches were such a prescribed practice for utility, worsening wounds or such pragmatic purposes.......why not on ANY other swords of ANY other countries? Hooks, barbs etc. may be common on axes, polearms but NOT the kind of thing you would see on a standard combat side arm like a sword. The notches are too shallow to effectively hold things picked up from the ground, unless perhaps to snag an item of clothing or material. Why would a horseman compromise his blade for such nonsense? The 'yelman' was NEVER intended for thrusting or any such purpose with the blade. The Poles called this feature colloquially 'the feather' , and its purpose was to add weight and momentum to the slashing cut. This has been made clear to me by sources who were Polish military history authorities, and the same purpose seems logically applied to other blades with this feature. Sword 'catching' features are typically presumed as pragmatic explanation as in actual combat, such a 'catch' would seem almost surprising and coincidental. In the thrust, which in combat was nearly always fatal, why would a wound need to be worsened, and with the potential of the blade becoming lodged in the victim? These are just the views I have come up with in the years I've studied this, but I really appreciate input and exchange of ideas. Typically interest in this has been nominal at best, so thank you.

29th October 2021, 01:45 PM	#2
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Found some information on Pottenstein for y'all! Source: https://www.blankwaffenforum.de/inde...&threadID=4120 "Pottenstein in the Triestingtal in Lower Austria so a Pottensteiner blade , originated around / or. before 1780 Empress MT in particularwanted topromote Austria as a closer location through its own production facilities for weapons (blanks and firearms) and supported corresponding initiatives. This resulted in several companies, of which Pottenstein was one of them. The saber blade factory in Pottenstein an der Triesting offered when it was relocatedfrom Sollenau in 1764/65 (founded there by Adam von Metzberg in 1754 ) under its new owner Melchior Steiner from the new location ideal conditions: relatively convenient proximity to Vienna , the flowing water of the Triesting, which does not freeze in winter and plenty of wood available for production. In 1766 28 workers were already employed in the Pottensteiner saber blade factory , the annual production amounted to 12,000 blades ( also for pallasche and hussar sabers) , which became known far beyond the Austrian hereditary lands under the term "Pottensteiner" --- and probably still are . 1769 The company expanded and not far from the old factory was given another property assigned by the Merkenstein rulers , where an even newer blade factory was built. In 1786 Steiner's nephew, Melchior Ritter von Steiner, took over the business. In 1800 there were about 50 workers , only then did the slow decline come : in 1811 (great inflationary period in Austria, Napoleon) only 7 workers left , in 1814 (Napoleonic period) almost shutdown. After Melchior von Steiner's death in 1837 , the plant was finally liquidated in 1841and converted into a cotton mill. I ask for your support in resolving my questions about the saber - thank you!"