Unknown Sword??

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2021, 04:38 PM

Drac, all of the suggestions you have made are perfectly well placed, and exactly the circumstances I would have thought. The problem of theatrical weapons has always presented a complete conundrum in identifying these anomalies, and more often than not, this category turns out correct.

As you note, the fraternal groups knew better than to carry sharpened weapons, these guys especially in earlier times were inclined to get feisty (just as you noted) and 'demon' rum was not a good idea with sharp items.
(As always I recall my 'tulwar' incident, a few nightcaps and taking a swing with this playfully, forgetting about my ceiling fan).

If this was intended as a utility item (i.e.machete or like tool) it would not have a cross guard. This suggests it was intended to appear to be an old sword.
My guess would be an amateur production of theatrical character, and at some point later, someone sharpened it for some actual use.

It definitely has age, and in times of strife, ersatz weapons were of virtually any character imaginable. Most interesting item.

M ELEY · 20th September 2021, 06:43 PM

I'm in agreement with you both. The problem with these one-off creations is, unless you have a history, a smith's name or some sort of provenance, it will always be a mystery sword. Jim's excellent point of having a crossguard excludes a tool (tobacco knife, fascine knife, etc), not to mention the crossguard is rather involved, folded over and welded metal. The aging/patina on the piece could make it pre-1900 perhaps, so hard to tell. Other crazy possibilities? Confederate side knife? Caribbean side knife, etc, etc. Well made 'mystery' sword-

drac2k · 20th September 2021, 07:27 PM

Thank you, Gentlemen, for your very insightful observations. What is a further mystery is that all of the brass embellishments are actually rivets that appear to go all the way through the guard and the handle which looks to be solid steel, or they could be just inlays.
As much as I would love this to be a Confederate weapon, the handle is too small to actively use as a fighting weapon, unless it was wrapped. Maybe a poor man's village "Sword of Justice;" I certainly think it could easily sever a person's hand or arm.

M ELEY · 20th September 2021, 09:33 PM

The only reason I mentioned a 'Confederate' possibility is the use of those brass 'studs. Brass and copper lugs became popular in the U.S. mid-1850's and you do see a lot of side knives, primitive bowies and other arms made in this way. That alone, of course, doesn't give us an answer, but I wouldn't place this weapon any earlier than mid 19th, nor later than, say, 1920's? based just on patina and general appearance. Just a guessing game, I'm afraid. Where did you find it? The reason I'm asking is I guess we can't rule out an ethnographic possibility. It has the generalized pattern of a kascara, which imitated the cruciform hilts all the way up to the 20th c. They likewise had some very rustic ptterns of swords, straight, double edged as yours and, yes, they used brass for decor if I'm not mistaken.

drac2k · 21st September 2021, 04:02 AM

I found the swords at an auction. There were 6 pcs.:3 antique Philippine swords, an African one, this one which was heavily rusted and a European swept hilted sword which I'm sure is a copy even though I think that it is a decent one; I'll know more when I clean it up. It was a very random group and all of them were in an abused condition.
I like your thoughts on a Confederate short sword and if it had an old wooden handle, I'd be singing "Dixie."It could be some village blacksmith's creation on what he thought would be a good weapon; it has good balance, only the handle is too small to grip it firmly. The handle is long enough and quite heavy,but too thin to easily hold steady in a prolonged fight.

20th September 2021, 04:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Drac, all of the suggestions you have made are perfectly well placed, and exactly the circumstances I would have thought. The problem of theatrical weapons has always presented a complete conundrum in identifying these anomalies, and more often than not, this category turns out correct. As you note, the fraternal groups knew better than to carry sharpened weapons, these guys especially in earlier times were inclined to get feisty (just as you noted) and 'demon' rum was not a good idea with sharp items. (As always I recall my 'tulwar' incident, a few nightcaps and taking a swing with this playfully, forgetting about my ceiling fan). If this was intended as a utility item (i.e.machete or like tool) it would not have a cross guard. This suggests it was intended to appear to be an old sword. My guess would be an amateur production of theatrical character, and at some point later, someone sharpened it for some actual use. It definitely has age, and in times of strife, ersatz weapons were of virtually any character imaginable. Most interesting item.

20th September 2021, 06:43 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	I'm in agreement with you both. The problem with these one-off creations is, unless you have a history, a smith's name or some sort of provenance, it will always be a mystery sword. Jim's excellent point of having a crossguard excludes a tool (tobacco knife, fascine knife, etc), not to mention the crossguard is rather involved, folded over and welded metal. The aging/patina on the piece could make it pre-1900 perhaps, so hard to tell. Other crazy possibilities? Confederate side knife? Caribbean side knife, etc, etc. Well made 'mystery' sword-

20th September 2021, 07:27 PM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	Thank you, Gentlemen, for your very insightful observations. What is a further mystery is that all of the brass embellishments are actually rivets that appear to go all the way through the guard and the handle which looks to be solid steel, or they could be just inlays. As much as I would love this to be a Confederate weapon, the handle is too small to actively use as a fighting weapon, unless it was wrapped. Maybe a poor man's village "Sword of Justice;" I certainly think it could easily sever a person's hand or arm.

20th September 2021, 09:33 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,156	The only reason I mentioned a 'Confederate' possibility is the use of those brass 'studs. Brass and copper lugs became popular in the U.S. mid-1850's and you do see a lot of side knives, primitive bowies and other arms made in this way. That alone, of course, doesn't give us an answer, but I wouldn't place this weapon any earlier than mid 19th, nor later than, say, 1920's? based just on patina and general appearance. Just a guessing game, I'm afraid. Where did you find it? The reason I'm asking is I guess we can't rule out an ethnographic possibility. It has the generalized pattern of a kascara, which imitated the cruciform hilts all the way up to the 20th c. They likewise had some very rustic ptterns of swords, straight, double edged as yours and, yes, they used brass for decor if I'm not mistaken.

21st September 2021, 04:02 AM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	I found the swords at an auction. There were 6 pcs.:3 antique Philippine swords, an African one, this one which was heavily rusted and a European swept hilted sword which I'm sure is a copy even though I think that it is a decent one; I'll know more when I clean it up. It was a very random group and all of them were in an abused condition. I like your thoughts on a Confederate short sword and if it had an old wooden handle, I'd be singing "Dixie."It could be some village blacksmith's creation on what he thought would be a good weapon; it has good balance, only the handle is too small to grip it firmly. The handle is long enough and quite heavy,but too thin to easily hold steady in a prolonged fight.