Keris Combong with markings

David · 20th September 2021, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

With the complong, yeah, certainly it was a cold shut , and when the base of the blade was forged out it opened up. But in my book it makes no real difference.

Whatever one believes will work, will, in fact work --- just maybe not because of the reason that is believed in.

Based upon your experience Alan do you believe this cold shut would have then been worked further to open it up more? It seems pretty wide to have accidentally reached this form. My feeling is that the cold shut formed and then the smith decided to exaggerate it it make it complong.

A. G. Maisey · 20th September 2021, 09:24 PM

Sorry David, I have no way in which to form opinion.

If I look at the grain of the iron, it does not appear to be broken, the same grain line flows through, as far as I can see. I suppose it is possible that the smith might have driven a chisel down into a smaller split and made it bigger, or even some owner might have done the same.

It is an old blade, it has had a lot of owners, anything is possible.

David · 21st September 2021, 01:04 PM

Thanks Alan.

morel5000 · 25th September 2021, 05:27 PM

Thanks again. How is this Pamor called? Pamor Adeg?

oariff · 30th May 2024, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Based upon your experience Alan do you believe this cold shut would have then been worked further to open it up more? It seems pretty wide to have accidentally reached this form. My feeling is that the cold shut formed and then the smith decided to exaggerate it it make it complong.

Hi All,

What is your opinion on this complong? Power of God or Power of Man?

Cheers.

drdavid · 30th May 2024, 07:40 AM

I'm not entirely sure the smaller section next to the gap was originally part of this keris, the sheen on the surface seems much duller, the garap on the greneng is a bit less crisp and the pamor lines dont seem to line up particularly well. Of course that may all be a function of oil on the keris, lighting in the photograph etc. If it is original then I suspect there has been some human intervention as there seems to be a little buckle in the metal at the far end of the complong
DrD

milandro · 1st June 2024, 09:35 AM

I think this is a " Power of G-D" combong , in other words, something which happened in the forging process.

Is this a " mistake"? Is this an " educated mistake"?

Well, I don't know.

I own one Combong which was revered by his previous Indonesian owner. In my opinion it was made by using a process which would have easily brought the blade to show a cold shut

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27671

As usual put two people together and you will easily get at least three opinions so I chose to form my own opinions.

oariff · 1st June 2024, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

I'm not entirely sure the smaller section next to the gap was originally part of this keris, the sheen on the surface seems much duller, the garap on the greneng is a bit less crisp and the pamor lines dont seem to line up particularly well. Of course that may all be a function of oil on the keris, lighting in the photograph etc. If it is original then I suspect there has been some human intervention as there seems to be a little buckle in the metal at the far end of the complong
DrD

Thanks drdavid and milandro for you comments.What would your opinion be on this one?

Cheers.

A. G. Maisey · 1st June 2024, 10:58 PM

Oariff, Post #10

am I to respond logically & as a person who has more than a little knowledge of forge work, or am I to respond as a "True Believer" ?

milandro · 3rd June 2024, 08:11 AM

I don't know what to think about this spear (I hesitate to call it a tombak ), it was made yesterday and everything about it screams " made to look like something that would sell" .

I was watching another thread with a fantasy kris . I don't have anything against modern made krises but I see an increasing amount of fantasy pieces being sold lately , true the kris evolves now as it must have done in the past but the evolution is driven by the commerce.

On a related note.

Some time ago there was a Moro kris showing what is not a twist core but a thin layer of Damascus pattern applied to the central part of the blade. I was pretty shocked . I have noticed that on aliexpress they offer thin Damascus forged sheets of metal for not very much money. If I put two and two together I see that soon we are going to see such " inserts" ( I am not going to upload them since they are sold there but they are easy to find under Damascus metal)

oariff · 4th June 2024, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oariff, Post #10

am I to respond logically & as a person who has more than a little knowledge of forge work, or am I to respond as a "True Believer" ?

Hi Alan,

Perhaps for this one - logically & as a person who probably has more hikmah (wisdom) and first hand experience of keris forge work than everyone else.

The complong in these two examples - Is it in your opinion, based on these images on a screen, intentional or unintentional? Or perhaps a bit of both. Are they even complong in the first place or just a hole in the blade. Of course, your opinion can change if you had the keris or spear/tombak in hand.

For a newbie like me, its about trying to figure out and understand the object that is in our collection. Origin, Technical/Specs, New or Old, Originals or Copy etc etc. Most important is what story does a particular object tell - and everybody will have their own version - reality/fantasy, right/wrong, etc etc.

Cheers.

A. G. Maisey · 4th June 2024, 10:13 PM

oariff

thank you for your compliment, but it is inaccurate, yes, I do have a good depth of knowledge in respect of forge work, but only insofar as it relates to the making of blades, nearly all other blacksmiths' abilities are not something I ever learnt, nor did I wish to learn.

about this tombak.

the maker had already sunk money into a ship that was never going to float, the work had a massive cold shut in it, he needed to at least try to cover his expenses so he did his best to make it saleable.

the end consumer of complex forge work never gets to know how many pieces fail during the process of making. If a man has a reputation, or is trying to build one, he never, ever lets the consumers of his work see the failures, and when a piece of work fails, well, that becomes a business overhead, rather than a successful sale, and that overhead becomes something that future sales must cover.

This is not unique to smiths in Madura, or Indonesia, or SE Asia, it has applied to smiths across the world & throughout history.

20th September 2021, 09:24 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Sorry David, I have no way in which to form opinion. If I look at the grain of the iron, it does not appear to be broken, the same grain line flows through, as far as I can see. I suppose it is possible that the smith might have driven a chisel down into a smaller split and made it bigger, or even some owner might have done the same. It is an old blade, it has had a lot of owners, anything is possible.

21st September 2021, 01:04 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Thanks Alan.

25th September 2021, 05:27 PM	#4
morel5000 Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 12	Thanks again. How is this Pamor called? Pamor Adeg?

30th May 2024, 07:40 AM	#6
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	I'm not entirely sure the smaller section next to the gap was originally part of this keris, the sheen on the surface seems much duller, the garap on the greneng is a bit less crisp and the pamor lines dont seem to line up particularly well. Of course that may all be a function of oil on the keris, lighting in the photograph etc. If it is original then I suspect there has been some human intervention as there seems to be a little buckle in the metal at the far end of the complong DrD

1st June 2024, 09:35 AM	#7
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	I think this is a " Power of G-D" combong , in other words, something which happened in the forging process. Is this a " mistake"? Is this an " educated mistake"? Well, I don't know. I own one Combong which was revered by his previous Indonesian owner. In my opinion it was made by using a process which would have easily brought the blade to show a cold shut http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27671 As usual put two people together and you will easily get at least three opinions so I chose to form my own opinions.

1st June 2024, 10:58 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Oariff, Post #10 am I to respond logically & as a person who has more than a little knowledge of forge work, or am I to respond as a "True Believer" ?

3rd June 2024, 08:11 AM	#10
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	I don't know what to think about this spear (I hesitate to call it a tombak ), it was made yesterday and everything about it screams " made to look like something that would sell" . I was watching another thread with a fantasy kris . I don't have anything against modern made krises but I see an increasing amount of fantasy pieces being sold lately , true the kris evolves now as it must have done in the past but the evolution is driven by the commerce. On a related note. Some time ago there was a Moro kris showing what is not a twist core but a thin layer of Damascus pattern applied to the central part of the blade. I was pretty shocked . I have noticed that on aliexpress they offer thin Damascus forged sheets of metal for not very much money. If I put two and two together I see that soon we are going to see such " inserts" ( I am not going to upload them since they are sold there but they are easy to find under Damascus metal)

4th June 2024, 10:13 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	oariff thank you for your compliment, but it is inaccurate, yes, I do have a good depth of knowledge in respect of forge work, but only insofar as it relates to the making of blades, nearly all other blacksmiths' abilities are not something I ever learnt, nor did I wish to learn. about this tombak. the maker had already sunk money into a ship that was never going to float, the work had a massive cold shut in it, he needed to at least try to cover his expenses so he did his best to make it saleable. the end consumer of complex forge work never gets to know how many pieces fail during the process of making. If a man has a reputation, or is trying to build one, he never, ever lets the consumers of his work see the failures, and when a piece of work fails, well, that becomes a business overhead, rather than a successful sale, and that overhead becomes something that future sales must cover. This is not unique to smiths in Madura, or Indonesia, or SE Asia, it has applied to smiths across the world & throughout history.