Awesome Jacobite period basket hilt broadsword

M ELEY · 16th September 2021, 09:32 AM

It is shocking to think about how many of these baskets we're lost, between the aftermath of 1745, the outlawing of swords and the unfortunate (but necessary) cut-down of swords to make dirks. That story of the remnants of the battle being made into a fence makes me boil inside! Just like the soldiers after WWII shoveling piles and piles of katana, tachi, waks, tantos into blast furnaces! The ancestral items gone forever! Why not just lock them away for later generations. We stored munitions, right? It makes me sick...

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2021, 05:50 PM

Capn, as we, along with so many others, are passionate students of history and these amazing weapons, I share your outrage intensely. It is impossible to study these things without being exposed to the sheer ugliness of war and the politics and the flaws in humanity that cause it.

The disarming of the Scots was not to seize and prohibit their arms, but more broadly to break their spirit and take their identity. Many of those who fought with the Jacobites at Culloden were fighting to preserve the deteriorating clan system and the social entity of Episcopalism .

Your analogy of the confiscation of the Japanese weaponry, which included many thousands of heirloom Samurai swords is well placed, and very much like this with the Scottish broadswords after Culloden.
The Samurai's sword, was the very soul of the warrior who wielded it, and as much as they loved these cherished weapons, a Samurai would break it rather than be disgraced by handing it over to an enemy.

This was, as I earlier noted, the case with the Scot's broadsword. It is clear that Cumberland's exact purpose in offering bounty for these was maliciously intended, and the heinous degradation of them being dismantled and placed in the fence of a political stooge is part of the disdain held for the Jacobites by these 'victors'.

However, as sickened I am, as well as you, in the destruction of these amazing weapons, I would note that I choose to remember the high side of these situations. With the Japanese swords, there were many tens of thousands of these weapons taken away as souvenirs by American and allied soldiers. Most of these were the treasured Samurai examples, but even the more pedestrian military types were taken as well.
For many years, there have been Japanese figures who traveled the US to repurchase these important swords, to be returned to thier homeland and properly restored and documented. In many cases, these were returned to their respective families. I can recall one instance where a katana with remarkable history and provenance was taken personally to Japan by a collector, and given to the family. Quite literally, a small temple was built to hold the sword.
I spoke to one of these traveling repatriation figures on one occasion, and he showed me the incredible examples he had acquired that day, some were over 600 years old! He actually had tears as he reverently showed me one example.

So returning to the dismantling of the Scottish broadswords to make dirks.
Think of it this way, rather than suffering the disgrace perpetrated by Cumberland and many of the victors at Culloden......many of these precious swords were dismounted, and the blades survived in the families as the permitted dirks. In many cases, the hilts, so many carrying the symbolism and heritage of the family also survived...but no longer weapons, just art or a family heirloom, not subject to confiscation.

I would venture to say that this is the very reason we have so many Scottish basket hilts (relatively of course) that survive today. While many were hidden away in entirety (as your wonderful example) or perhaps taken overseas, numbers of these remaining hilts were likely remounted with old blades in the 19th century with the new fascination with Scottish dress and items.

The blades that were intended to be disgraced in this travesty of a 'fence', however, stood proudly as the warriors who wielded them on that fateful day at Culloden. Though wounded, that pride could not be taken from them, instead it empowered their legacy.

M ELEY · 17th September 2021, 02:47 AM

Beautifully put, Jim and, of course, you are right. I just got caught up in the wasted destruction of these amazing pieces. In reality, this type of thing goes on even when it isn't war-related. Back in the Art Deco period of the '20's-30's, there was a complete disrespect for anything 'old'. Fine jewelry from a century before was cut up, melted down, reworked, etc. I've seen Bavarian swords from the Crimean war turned into candle sticks, Indo-Persian helmets and old Japanese incense burners turned into modern lamps during this period. What a shame...

You brought up an interesting point concerning basket hilts that made it over the pond to America back in the day. I just read up on frontier British forts during the French and Indian War. many of the officers at these garrisons had older baskets from pre-1750. Likewise, Neumann, in his monumental work on swords of the Revolution rightly shows many basket hilts that 'made it over here' for the conflict. Another route of the Scots, like a terrible shadow of Culloden, happened right here in North Carolina during the war at the Battle of Moore's Creek.

https://portcitydaily.com/local-news...-moores-creek/

Having read up on that battle, I believe terrain was the most significant factor versus the terribly inaccurate firearms, however. In any case, I bring this up because my basket was purchased in Vancouver, Canada, a British province once the war ended and the English traveled north. I know it's a stretch, but you never know where some of these items might have traveled to or been!

Interested Party · 17th September 2021, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY;266155many basket hilts that 'made it over here' for the conflict. Another route of the Scots, like a terrible shadow of Culloden, happened right here in North Carolina during the war at the Battle of Moore's Creek.

[url

https://portcitydaily.com/local-news/2018/02/11/swords-to-a-gunfight-relive-a-tragic-military-mismatch-at-moores-creek/[/url]

Having read up on that battle, I believe terrain was the most significant factor versus the terribly inaccurate firearms, however. In any case, I bring this up because my basket was purchased in Vancouver, Canada, a British province once the war ended and the English traveled north. I know it's a stretch, but you never know where some of these items might have traveled to or been!

I would imagine the Scotts of western NC were less loyal as the Tories were rounded up and hung. Those that escaped were hunted down. A few survived after spending the war in hiding. Mr. Howard of Howard's Knob would be an example of one who lived. 40 years ago the execution of the Tories was a still a de facto school holiday in parts of western NC as they would bus kids out to visit the oak the rebels executed the loyalist on. I wonder if NC history is still taught from the same point of view?

M ELEY · 17th September 2021, 09:48 AM

Wow! That is shocking and very interesting information! I'm a transplant to NC and have lived here for about 30 years. Likewise, I live mid-state, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn of such 'field trips' up in the mountians. The Tories were indeed hated and were responsible (along with some colonists supporting the new regime, of course) for some graphic war crimes. Many say the first real Civil War was fought here in the southern colonies back during the Revolution. I'll have to do some research on that info you gave. Thanks!

Jim McDougall · 17th September 2021, 07:27 PM

That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c.

On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198):

"....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder".

-from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719.

The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718.

The Highlander was probably of a local militia with men recruited by Lt. Maynard to man his sloops (two) to pursue Blackbeard in the inlets in this area. Maynard's sword was broken, and the Highlander struck Blackbeard from behind.

Given that the basket hilt Mark has posted here is from the 1680-1700 period, we may assume the Highlander had a sword quite similar.

Battara · 17th September 2021, 09:55 PM

Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts!

Interested Party · 17th September 2021, 09:59 PM

Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with.

M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion.

I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.

M ELEY · 18th September 2021, 04:11 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;266171]That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c.

On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198):

"....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder".

-from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719.

The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718.

Jim, anytime you bring up either Blackbeard, piracy or Scottish baskets, you command my attention! I was always fascinated by the story of the Highlander who killed the nefarious pirate. Most texts annoyingly just say Lt. Maynard killed him, which was not the case. The Scot who struck down the villain from Bristol is usually un-credited, as is the story of him striking the pirate twice. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me collecting. Knowing all of the history these pieces represent and all of the (potential) places they may have traveled to in their paths through history!

Thanks to all for commenting on the basket! Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!

17th September 2021, 07:27 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c. On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198): "....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder". -from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719. The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718. The Highlander was probably of a local militia with men recruited by Lt. Maynard to man his sloops (two) to pursue Blackbeard in the inlets in this area. Maynard's sword was broken, and the Highlander struck Blackbeard from behind. Given that the basket hilt Mark has posted here is from the 1680-1700 period, we may assume the Highlander had a sword quite similar. Attached Images

16th September 2021, 09:32 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	It is shocking to think about how many of these baskets we're lost, between the aftermath of 1745, the outlawing of swords and the unfortunate (but necessary) cut-down of swords to make dirks. That story of the remnants of the battle being made into a fence makes me boil inside! Just like the soldiers after WWII shoveling piles and piles of katana, tachi, waks, tantos into blast furnaces! The ancestral items gone forever! Why not just lock them away for later generations. We stored munitions, right? It makes me sick...

16th September 2021, 05:50 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Capn, as we, along with so many others, are passionate students of history and these amazing weapons, I share your outrage intensely. It is impossible to study these things without being exposed to the sheer ugliness of war and the politics and the flaws in humanity that cause it. The disarming of the Scots was not to seize and prohibit their arms, but more broadly to break their spirit and take their identity. Many of those who fought with the Jacobites at Culloden were fighting to preserve the deteriorating clan system and the social entity of Episcopalism . Your analogy of the confiscation of the Japanese weaponry, which included many thousands of heirloom Samurai swords is well placed, and very much like this with the Scottish broadswords after Culloden. The Samurai's sword, was the very soul of the warrior who wielded it, and as much as they loved these cherished weapons, a Samurai would break it rather than be disgraced by handing it over to an enemy. This was, as I earlier noted, the case with the Scot's broadsword. It is clear that Cumberland's exact purpose in offering bounty for these was maliciously intended, and the heinous degradation of them being dismantled and placed in the fence of a political stooge is part of the disdain held for the Jacobites by these 'victors'. However, as sickened I am, as well as you, in the destruction of these amazing weapons, I would note that I choose to remember the high side of these situations. With the Japanese swords, there were many tens of thousands of these weapons taken away as souvenirs by American and allied soldiers. Most of these were the treasured Samurai examples, but even the more pedestrian military types were taken as well. For many years, there have been Japanese figures who traveled the US to repurchase these important swords, to be returned to thier homeland and properly restored and documented. In many cases, these were returned to their respective families. I can recall one instance where a katana with remarkable history and provenance was taken personally to Japan by a collector, and given to the family. Quite literally, a small temple was built to hold the sword. I spoke to one of these traveling repatriation figures on one occasion, and he showed me the incredible examples he had acquired that day, some were over 600 years old! He actually had tears as he reverently showed me one example. So returning to the dismantling of the Scottish broadswords to make dirks. Think of it this way, rather than suffering the disgrace perpetrated by Cumberland and many of the victors at Culloden......many of these precious swords were dismounted, and the blades survived in the families as the permitted dirks. In many cases, the hilts, so many carrying the symbolism and heritage of the family also survived...but no longer weapons, just art or a family heirloom, not subject to confiscation. I would venture to say that this is the very reason we have so many Scottish basket hilts (relatively of course) that survive today. While many were hidden away in entirety (as your wonderful example) or perhaps taken overseas, numbers of these remaining hilts were likely remounted with old blades in the 19th century with the new fascination with Scottish dress and items. The blades that were intended to be disgraced in this travesty of a 'fence', however, stood proudly as the warriors who wielded them on that fateful day at Culloden. Though wounded, that pride could not be taken from them, instead it empowered their legacy.

17th September 2021, 02:47 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Beautifully put, Jim and, of course, you are right. I just got caught up in the wasted destruction of these amazing pieces. In reality, this type of thing goes on even when it isn't war-related. Back in the Art Deco period of the '20's-30's, there was a complete disrespect for anything 'old'. Fine jewelry from a century before was cut up, melted down, reworked, etc. I've seen Bavarian swords from the Crimean war turned into candle sticks, Indo-Persian helmets and old Japanese incense burners turned into modern lamps during this period. What a shame... You brought up an interesting point concerning basket hilts that made it over the pond to America back in the day. I just read up on frontier British forts during the French and Indian War. many of the officers at these garrisons had older baskets from pre-1750. Likewise, Neumann, in his monumental work on swords of the Revolution rightly shows many basket hilts that 'made it over here' for the conflict. Another route of the Scots, like a terrible shadow of Culloden, happened right here in North Carolina during the war at the Battle of Moore's Creek. https://portcitydaily.com/local-news...-moores-creek/ Having read up on that battle, I believe terrain was the most significant factor versus the terribly inaccurate firearms, however. In any case, I bring this up because my basket was purchased in Vancouver, Canada, a British province once the war ended and the English traveled north. I know it's a stretch, but you never know where some of these items might have traveled to or been!

17th September 2021, 09:48 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Wow! That is shocking and very interesting information! I'm a transplant to NC and have lived here for about 30 years. Likewise, I live mid-state, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn of such 'field trips' up in the mountians. The Tories were indeed hated and were responsible (along with some colonists supporting the new regime, of course) for some graphic war crimes. Many say the first real Civil War was fought here in the southern colonies back during the Revolution. I'll have to do some research on that info you gave. Thanks!

17th September 2021, 09:55 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Jim I had no idea that 19c blades were re-hilted with the older hilts!

17th September 2021, 09:59 PM	#8
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 492	Jim fascinating. My source material reading list continues to grow and diversify at a rate I can't keep up with. M Eley this is an amazing piece that has sparked a great discussion. I have never seen one of these swords, a basket, or even one of the famous crosscut saws remade into a short sword that was a family heirloom from this period. What is more I never even heard the rumor of their existence as such during my childhood in western NC. I believe I would have seen one proudly displayed by someone in my grandfather's gun shop if they were at all common. Every type of antiquarian oddity came through there at one time or another. I can only guess that they were either literally beat into plow shards eventually or confiscated by the northern or southern troops 100 years later. The idea of a sword was so foreign that my mother danced over crossed sticks while her grandmother beat time without anyone realizing it was a supposed to be a sword dance. I guess after 250 years it is surprising that even that much old world culture remained.

18th September 2021, 04:11 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;266171]That the basket hilt had a long presence in the American colonies has no doubt. Scots and Irish, hence Scotch-Irish, had been coming to America, and in the Carolinas for some time, and were in place in early 18th c. On the death of the pirate Blackbeard, from "Under the Black Flag", David Cordingly, 1996, p.198): "....one of Maynard's men being a Highlander, engaged Teach with his broadsword, who gave Teach a cut on the neck, Teach saying 'well done lad'; the Highlander replied , 'if not be well done, then I'll do it better', with that he gave him a second stroke, which cut off his head laying it flat on his shoulder". -from the "Boston News Letter", Feb.23 to Mar.2, 1719. The event was at Ocracoke, N.C. November 22, 1718. Jim, anytime you bring up either Blackbeard, piracy or Scottish baskets, you command my attention! I was always fascinated by the story of the Highlander who killed the nefarious pirate. Most texts annoyingly just say Lt. Maynard killed him, which was not the case. The Scot who struck down the villain from Bristol is usually un-credited, as is the story of him striking the pirate twice. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me collecting. Knowing all of the history these pieces represent and all of the (potential) places they may have traveled to in their paths through history! Thanks to all for commenting on the basket! Maybe I'll strap this soldier to my side, put on my kilt and attend the next Highland Games here in NC!