Keris Minangkabau by

Green · 4th September 2021, 03:30 PM

my "philosophy " is different. One of the best ways to understand a subject is to see as many as possible good examples of the subject. Be they paintings, ceramics, keris etc. And for beginners, this book is a good start to see what 'good' sumatran keris look like. I have this book, have not read it but love the pictures!

Jean · 4th September 2021, 06:32 PM

I own one kris book titled "Keris Mayakarya Nusantara" which includes about 15 krisses from the collection of the co-author, and most of them have old blades but are matched with recent & bling-bling scabbards and hilts. Also some of the blades are probably of Javanese origin but attributed to Minangkabau...

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2021, 10:15 PM

Green, I don't believe that our philosophies vary all that much, but it seems certain that our areas of interest do vary.

I have been handling keris since before I went to school, so probably from about age 4 or so, I have owned keris since I was 12, I started to buy keris before I was 16.

By the age of thirty I had over 2000 keris. These were not all complete, perfect keris, they were keris blades, some were complete keris, many were damaged. I also had a lot of sundry S.E. Asian bladed tools and weapons. In total I had something approaching 3000 objects.

I sold most of these things beginning before 1974, and by 1983 I had only the collection from my grandfather, and perhaps 30 or 40 other items, most were keris.

In 1982 Empu Suparman began to teach me, and from that time I had a whole new perspective on the study of keris.

From 1974 through to 2015 I was spending 2 or 3 months every year in Indonesia and most of that time was spent in Solo.During every visit to Indonesia I went out of my way to look at and handle keris. I would estimate that during each visit I never saw less than one to two thousand keris, and most of these I handled.

I do believe that one of the things that is essential to keris study is to see & handle as many keris as possible.

However, over the time I've been involved with keris I have found that I cannot learn very much by looking at pictures, I need to see the actual keris and preferably handle it.

Link this attitude to the fact that I have a very narrow field of focus these days, and that focus is almost exclusively Jawa & Bali, and you will understand why I have very little interest in a book with a lot of nice pictures and (in my opinion) fairly light weight text.

Jean, it is an element of keris culture in Jawa & Bali, most especially in Jawa, that the scabbard & hilt of a keris is changed relatively often. A fine old keris is considered to deserve the best dress that its custodian can afford to give it. Inherited keris often need to have dress changed to reflect the status of the custodian, a keris that is in the custody of a member of karaton hierarchy will very likely have its dress changed every time the custodian achieves a new rank. During the life time of a single person the one keris can well have a number of changes of dress.

It is only collectors who use Eurocentric standards who value old keris in old dress. For some Javanese nobles such a situation would be at the least, an embarrassment.

I can very easily understand why many noted Indonesian collectors dress their keris in new, bling-bling scabbard & hilt. As Pak Parman said to me, old keris dress is just like an old suit of clothes, when it becomes shabby or out of style, you get rid of it, only the gold, silver and precious stones have any value.

Jean · 5th September 2021, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can very easily understand why many noted Indonesian collectors dress their keris in new, bling-bling scabbard & hilt.

Hello Alan,
I have nothing against this javanese tradition of replacing an old dress for prestige reasons provided that the blade and dress are of compatible origin, e.g. a javanese blade in a javanese or even madurese scabbard is acceptable to me, but not a sumatrese scabbard & hilt.
I remember a regretted Yogya kris dealer (Suryono) who got more than 100 kris scabbards in good condition for peanuts because a rich Indonesian collector wanted to replace them by more "precious" ones.
And I am not ashamed of my Eurocentric position (preference for well-matching blade & dress) which is in line with the philosophy of antiques collectors and museums in Europe.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 5th September 2021, 10:09 AM

Yes Jean, I do understand your standards well. I used pretty much the same standards until I was, let us say. "re-educated". In fact I still very much appreciate nice, and even not so nice older keris fittings.

But I think you have missed my point, this preference for old keris in old dress all of a style originating from the same geographic location is thoroughly European, it is not a part of Javanese keris tradition, and possibly not a part of the keris culture in other keris bearing societies.

Whilst it is true that some people might replace existing keris dress for "prestige reasons", this is not the dominant reason, and in fact I do not know first hand of any case, outside of some collectors in Indonesia, who replace simply for "prestige".

The dominant reason for replacement of dress is social necessity. There is another reason also which is not as uncommon as might be supposed, and that is a message, or request, or demand that is brought in a dream.

As for the mating of blade & dress to a geographic location of common origin, this again is a European initiated standard.

Keris that are in actual use as family heirlooms or as items of dress very often do not have dress that matches the blade. People in what is now Indonesia did not stay put in just one place, they moved around, and they took their keris with them.

Bugis, Madurese, Balinese men were highly regarded by the Javanese and the Dutch, and rulers in other locations, as warriors, soldiers, guards. Often these men would remain in Jogja or Solo, or somewhere else, when their period of service finished. They would marry, settle into the community and their keris were sometimes passed through the family as heirlooms. In Bali, very many of the old keris are in fact Javanese.

I personally like the idea of having Javanese keris in Javanese dress, Bugis keris in Bugis dress, and so forth, but my personal preference is based in Western collector standards & values. It is not reflected in the communities where a Javanese gentleman of today might wear the pusaka keris in Javanese dress that was passed down from many generations in the past.

Thus, if our author should choose to do the blingy thingy with his keris one should, I believe, appreciate this as evidence of the continuing observance of long standing tradition.

It is an indisputable fact that the people who belong to any particular culture do own that culture. It may be regretted by some of us that they do not necessarily share the same standards that collectors from outside that owning culture have, but well, that's just the way it is.

I sort of think of this preference for "old keris in old, original dress" as an offshoot of antique collecting rather than of keris study.

The defining line between the student of the keris and the collector of the keris.

This is not to say that either the collector is superior to the student, or vice versa, it is to say that these two groups of people apply different parameters.

Jean · 24th September 2021, 10:23 AM

My curiosity was piqued by our discussion (how could somebody write a book with more than 450 pages about these scarce Minangkabau krisses?).
I feel particularly interested by these krisses after my visit to Padang and Bukittingi in 1997 (during which I could see and handle many Minang krisses), so I decided to buy the book and just received it, and my comments are as follows:
The book is attractively presented with many excellent kris pictures, but most of these krisses are not from Minang origin in my opinion, so the book title is confusing. Some krisses are correctly attributed to other areas such as Palembang, Riau, Jambi, Sulawesi, Borneo, West Java, etc. but many others classified as Minang and "influenced by krisses from other areas" are actually originating from these regions IMO.
According to my observations and the descriptions from Jensen in his Krisdisk, I share the opinion that the original Minang krisses are of either of the 2 following types, with some variations of course:
. Average size kris with alang/ bahari type blade without pamor or with pamor sanak.
. Small size kris with anak alang blade generally with 3 luks, and possibly worn by women.
I attach 2 typical specimens of these krisses for your reference and discussion.
In spite of my questioning about the krisses attribution in the book, it constitutes a very good picture reference for many types of Indonesian krisses (especially from Sumatra) so I do not regret my purchase....
I will take more time for reviewing the text later.
Regards

4th September 2021, 06:32 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I own one kris book titled "Keris Mayakarya Nusantara" which includes about 15 krisses from the collection of the co-author, and most of them have old blades but are matched with recent & bling-bling scabbards and hilts. Also some of the blades are probably of Javanese origin but attributed to Minangkabau... Last edited by Jean; 4th September 2021 at 06:45 PM.

24th September 2021, 10:23 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	My curiosity was piqued by our discussion (how could somebody write a book with more than 450 pages about these scarce Minangkabau krisses?). I feel particularly interested by these krisses after my visit to Padang and Bukittingi in 1997 (during which I could see and handle many Minang krisses), so I decided to buy the book and just received it, and my comments are as follows: The book is attractively presented with many excellent kris pictures, but most of these krisses are not from Minang origin in my opinion, so the book title is confusing. Some krisses are correctly attributed to other areas such as Palembang, Riau, Jambi, Sulawesi, Borneo, West Java, etc. but many others classified as Minang and "influenced by krisses from other areas" are actually originating from these regions IMO. According to my observations and the descriptions from Jensen in his Krisdisk, I share the opinion that the original Minang krisses are of either of the 2 following types, with some variations of course: . Average size kris with alang/ bahari type blade without pamor or with pamor sanak. . Small size kris with anak alang blade generally with 3 luks, and possibly worn by women. I attach 2 typical specimens of these krisses for your reference and discussion. In spite of my questioning about the krisses attribution in the book, it constitutes a very good picture reference for many types of Indonesian krisses (especially from Sumatra) so I do not regret my purchase.... I will take more time for reviewing the text later. Regards Attached Images

4th September 2021, 03:30 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	my "philosophy " is different. One of the best ways to understand a subject is to see as many as possible good examples of the subject. Be they paintings, ceramics, keris etc. And for beginners, this book is a good start to see what 'good' sumatran keris look like. I have this book, have not read it but love the pictures!

4th September 2021, 10:15 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Green, I don't believe that our philosophies vary all that much, but it seems certain that our areas of interest do vary. I have been handling keris since before I went to school, so probably from about age 4 or so, I have owned keris since I was 12, I started to buy keris before I was 16. By the age of thirty I had over 2000 keris. These were not all complete, perfect keris, they were keris blades, some were complete keris, many were damaged. I also had a lot of sundry S.E. Asian bladed tools and weapons. In total I had something approaching 3000 objects. I sold most of these things beginning before 1974, and by 1983 I had only the collection from my grandfather, and perhaps 30 or 40 other items, most were keris. In 1982 Empu Suparman began to teach me, and from that time I had a whole new perspective on the study of keris. From 1974 through to 2015 I was spending 2 or 3 months every year in Indonesia and most of that time was spent in Solo.During every visit to Indonesia I went out of my way to look at and handle keris. I would estimate that during each visit I never saw less than one to two thousand keris, and most of these I handled. I do believe that one of the things that is essential to keris study is to see & handle as many keris as possible. However, over the time I've been involved with keris I have found that I cannot learn very much by looking at pictures, I need to see the actual keris and preferably handle it. Link this attitude to the fact that I have a very narrow field of focus these days, and that focus is almost exclusively Jawa & Bali, and you will understand why I have very little interest in a book with a lot of nice pictures and (in my opinion) fairly light weight text. Jean, it is an element of keris culture in Jawa & Bali, most especially in Jawa, that the scabbard & hilt of a keris is changed relatively often. A fine old keris is considered to deserve the best dress that its custodian can afford to give it. Inherited keris often need to have dress changed to reflect the status of the custodian, a keris that is in the custody of a member of karaton hierarchy will very likely have its dress changed every time the custodian achieves a new rank. During the life time of a single person the one keris can well have a number of changes of dress. It is only collectors who use Eurocentric standards who value old keris in old dress. For some Javanese nobles such a situation would be at the least, an embarrassment. I can very easily understand why many noted Indonesian collectors dress their keris in new, bling-bling scabbard & hilt. As Pak Parman said to me, old keris dress is just like an old suit of clothes, when it becomes shabby or out of style, you get rid of it, only the gold, silver and precious stones have any value.

5th September 2021, 10:09 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Jean, I do understand your standards well. I used pretty much the same standards until I was, let us say. "re-educated". In fact I still very much appreciate nice, and even not so nice older keris fittings. But I think you have missed my point, this preference for old keris in old dress all of a style originating from the same geographic location is thoroughly European, it is not a part of Javanese keris tradition, and possibly not a part of the keris culture in other keris bearing societies. Whilst it is true that some people might replace existing keris dress for "prestige reasons", this is not the dominant reason, and in fact I do not know first hand of any case, outside of some collectors in Indonesia, who replace simply for "prestige". The dominant reason for replacement of dress is social necessity. There is another reason also which is not as uncommon as might be supposed, and that is a message, or request, or demand that is brought in a dream. As for the mating of blade & dress to a geographic location of common origin, this again is a European initiated standard. Keris that are in actual use as family heirlooms or as items of dress very often do not have dress that matches the blade. People in what is now Indonesia did not stay put in just one place, they moved around, and they took their keris with them. Bugis, Madurese, Balinese men were highly regarded by the Javanese and the Dutch, and rulers in other locations, as warriors, soldiers, guards. Often these men would remain in Jogja or Solo, or somewhere else, when their period of service finished. They would marry, settle into the community and their keris were sometimes passed through the family as heirlooms. In Bali, very many of the old keris are in fact Javanese. I personally like the idea of having Javanese keris in Javanese dress, Bugis keris in Bugis dress, and so forth, but my personal preference is based in Western collector standards & values. It is not reflected in the communities where a Javanese gentleman of today might wear the pusaka keris in Javanese dress that was passed down from many generations in the past. Thus, if our author should choose to do the blingy thingy with his keris one should, I believe, appreciate this as evidence of the continuing observance of long standing tradition. It is an indisputable fact that the people who belong to any particular culture do own that culture. It may be regretted by some of us that they do not necessarily share the same standards that collectors from outside that owning culture have, but well, that's just the way it is. I sort of think of this preference for "old keris in old, original dress" as an offshoot of antique collecting rather than of keris study. The defining line between the student of the keris and the collector of the keris. This is not to say that either the collector is superior to the student, or vice versa, it is to say that these two groups of people apply different parameters.