UNUSUAL TULWAR for COMMENT

corrado26 · 2nd September 2021, 05:52 PM

Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration

Kubur · 2nd September 2021, 07:46 PM

I have Indian blades with the same fullers...
Yes, Indians imitated European blades, nothing new.
If Tuaregs can do it, of course, Indians can do it too!
I agree with Mercenary, Firangi means nothing, just foreigner and the Indian swords called firangi have a basket hilt...

kahnjar1 · 2nd September 2021, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I have Indian blades with the same fullers...
Yes, Indians imitated European blades, nothing new.
If Tuaregs can do it, of course, Indians can do it too!
I agree with Mercenary, Firangi means nothing, just foreigner and the Indian swords called firangi have a basket hilt...

What hilts are your fullered blades on? Do you have any blades like this with TULWAR hilts. If so could you please post some pics.

I was hoping that this thread would comment on the particular blade/hilt combination as I have not been able to find any other pics or reference to Tulwars like this.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 2nd September 2021, 10:13 PM

My initial thought in seeing this example, I thought perhaps this was a Sudanese kaskara blade mounted in a tulwar hilt. However, while the crudely drawn central triple fullers resemble those on the blades commonly seen on these, the blade fans out toward the hilt, while kaskara blades remain uniform.

A 'straight' blade 'tulwar' (Indo-Persian hilt) is known in Hindu as 'sukhela', and to the south in Deccan as 'dhup' (Marathi). ("The Indian Sword", P.Rawson, 1969, p.30,p.90).Trying to categorize these, just as with most ethnographic weapons, by term, is usually pure folly.

The straight blade on these swords seems to have been regarded in many cases as for representations of authority, court officials, and often soldiers or warriors of high esteem....apparently the variation had some significance.

It would seem this blade is a copied version of possibly the Sudanese kaskara blades, as far as fullering that is. Interestingly, I have seen Indian swords with 'kaskara or Sudanese' blades, or actually those of the form which were exported heavily into Sudan from Europe. In some cases these were with 'tulwar' hilts, some 'pata' etc.
That would suggest there was enough diffusion and interaction with trade between these spheres to bring about these kinds of circumstances.

Thus, a dhup/sukhela sword with probably Indian made approximation of either a Sudanese blade or its European counterpart. The 'firangi' term is used only collectively to describe any sword with a 'foreign' blade, regardless of overall sword form.

kahnjar1 · 3rd September 2021, 12:21 AM

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your contribution. Much appreciated. Yes I would perhaps call this a Sukhela but any illustration I can find suggests that the Sukhela blade has paralel sides rather than tapered from the hilt as this blade is.
I am not (necessarily) trying to get a concise ID of this sword but simply to see if anyone else has (or has seen) this particular variant.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 02:55 AM

Hi Stu,
Understood, and the way I have understood, the terms 'sukhela' and 'dhup' are simply by language describing the same type sword, that is with basically straight blade rather than curved.
The 'variation' seems to be primarily blade oriented, and as blades came from so many sources, not to mention being remounted many times over working lives, it is hard to pinpoint.
Here are some of the examples of these found online, not much help, but illustrates the range of variant blades that were used.

Studying the swords and weapons of India is both daunting and exciting with so many conundrums involved.
Nice and interesting example Stu, as always.

Jim

Kubur · 3rd September 2021, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I was hoping that this thread would comment on the particular blade/hilt combination as I have not been able to find any other pics or reference to Tulwars like this.
Stu

To come back to your question Stu, the blade looks South Indian and the hilt North Indian.
Now is this combination done later in an "English lab" for sale?
an "Indian lab" for tourists with two old parts?
Or a geniune product from the 18th or 19th c.
Well I don't know...

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 02:58 AM

[QUOTE=corrado26;265793]Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration[/QUOTE

Interesting example Udo, and I see what you mean, those parallel fullers which are irregularly drawn (though four) suggest Indian workmanship on blade.

kahnjar1 · 3rd September 2021, 06:08 AM

Once again thank you Jim. The pics you posted show several different types of blades (some look to be repurposed) so the subject blade which sold here could also be a repurposed blade, or made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.
I agree with your comments regarding Indian weapons....quite a mine field really as there are just so many of them.
Hope you are OK with the wild weather and the virus in the U.S.
Stu

Kubur · 3rd September 2021, 09:12 AM

Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.

Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.

kahnjar1 · 3rd September 2021, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.

Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.

Hi Kubur,

In your post above you say you have Indian blades with fullers. Can we please see some pics?
Stu

Mercenary · 3rd September 2021, 01:24 PM

Sukhela - a kind of steel.

Dhoop - a representative sword that can be held like a staff (as Jim correctly wrote).

Indian talwar with a blade of Persian, European, African and so on production, made in accordance with Indian traditions in India - this is an Indian talwar. I saw in the thread no facts why this blade could not have been made in India.

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Sukhela - a kind of steel.

Dhoop - a representative sword that can be held like a staff (as Jim correctly wrote).

Indian talwar with a blade of Persian, European, African and so on production, made in accordance with Indian traditions in India - this is an Indian talwar. I saw in the thread no facts why this blade could not have been made in India.

Thank you Mercenary, actually what I suggested in post #8 (but did not make clear) was that this blade was likely made in India in imitation of either European or North African (probably Sudanese) blade.
As North Africa imitated European blades, it would be hard to determine which might be the case.

Thank you for the info on Sukhela being a type of steel, I had not realized that but indeed that may have lent to the term for the swords which had been produced using it. It seems that these kinds of instances would come up for example in Sirohi (Rajasthan) where the swords produced were called that, but whether place name or as you note, perhaps other, might be the case.
The name game gets pretty 'exciting' (?) and intriguing.

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.

Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.

Hi Kubur,
Since North African blades often tried to imitate European, and Indian armorers did as well, it is hard to say, but this seems made in India.

In West Africa, many of the takouba types do have these wide forte and tapering blades, and with this kind of fullering, but it would be difficult to imagine why a native made Saharan blade would end up in Indo-Persian tulwar hilt..I have always sort of hidden my eyes from the notorious 'labs' (very well put) where collector guaged 'antiquities' are created by nefarious sellers, but they do exist.

As I had noted, I have seen numerous instances where Sudanese blades have ended up in Indian mounts, but have always taken it that these were simply blades diverted from the trade routes which carried these blades and somehow diffused into the India network.

Here is a pata of mine I've had for about 40 years. As can be seen this appears to be a Solingen blade, the cosmological motif can be faintly seen. This is of the type that went into Sudan c. 1880s. The erratic profile of the blade is common on older kaskara and Saharan blades which have had rugged sharpening by native warriors with stones. Clearly this blade at some time ended up in this pata hillt, and it was long ago as considerably before I acquired it. In various ceremonies with groups in regions in SW India pata are used processionally and in demonstrations so this might well have been a votive piece, not intended for combat.

The wide, tapered blade takouba from regions in Saharan regions such as Mali, to Cameroon seems to have been status oriented. While often the upper part is covered by a metal collar, often these are seen with the kind of fullers seen on Stu's example.

Kubur · 3rd September 2021, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Kubur,
Since North African blades often tried to imitate European, and Indian armorers did as well, it is hard to say, but this seems made in India.

Hi Jim,

Agreed!
South Indian three fullers are larger and not completely parrallel (unlike the takouba's ones), wider at the ricasso.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As I had noted, I have seen numerous instances where Sudanese blades have ended up in Indian mounts

Mmmm I never ever saw that, like mercenary I would like to see evidences.

Norman McCormick · 3rd September 2021, 06:26 PM

Hi,
This sword belongs to me and I am as sure as I can be that it is all original and not a composite. I termed this sword as Sukhela as the blade has the flexibility to conform to the type. The sword form appears to be named after this type of steel. This is a backsword and I would be interested if Stu could confirm if his is a backsword or broadsword.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Once again thank you Jim. The pics you posted show several different types of blades (some look to be repurposed) so the subject blade which sold here could also be a repurposed blade, or made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.
I agree with your comments regarding Indian weapons....quite a mine field really as there are just so many of them.
Hope you are OK with the wild weather and the virus in the U.S.
Stu

Thank you Stu! All OK, wild weather is expected this time of year, but of course nobody gets used to it......resilient yes, complacent no. We are lucky in this part of Texas our area is not like the metropolitan cities where certain political mindsets run rampant and the population issues are a factor.
My daughter is a nurse and handles elderly patients etc. so she has had it rough, not because of hard work, but losing patients. She takes it hard.

Im really glad you posted this example, we need more Indian weapons as we always learn more each one we discuss.

All the best, you guys stay safe OK
Jim

2nd September 2021, 05:52 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration Attached Images

3rd September 2021, 02:55 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Stu, Understood, and the way I have understood, the terms 'sukhela' and 'dhup' are simply by language describing the same type sword, that is with basically straight blade rather than curved. The 'variation' seems to be primarily blade oriented, and as blades came from so many sources, not to mention being remounted many times over working lives, it is hard to pinpoint. Here are some of the examples of these found online, not much help, but illustrates the range of variant blades that were used. Studying the swords and weapons of India is both daunting and exciting with so many conundrums involved. Nice and interesting example Stu, as always. Jim Attached Images

3rd September 2021, 06:26 PM	#16
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, This sword belongs to me and I am as sure as I can be that it is all original and not a composite. I termed this sword as Sukhela as the blade has the flexibility to conform to the type. The sword form appears to be named after this type of steel. This is a backsword and I would be interested if Stu could confirm if his is a backsword or broadsword. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 3rd September 2021 at 06:50 PM.

2nd September 2021, 07:46 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I have Indian blades with the same fullers... Yes, Indians imitated European blades, nothing new. If Tuaregs can do it, of course, Indians can do it too! I agree with Mercenary, Firangi means nothing, just foreigner and the Indian swords called firangi have a basket hilt...

2nd September 2021, 10:13 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	My initial thought in seeing this example, I thought perhaps this was a Sudanese kaskara blade mounted in a tulwar hilt. However, while the crudely drawn central triple fullers resemble those on the blades commonly seen on these, the blade fans out toward the hilt, while kaskara blades remain uniform. A 'straight' blade 'tulwar' (Indo-Persian hilt) is known in Hindu as 'sukhela', and to the south in Deccan as 'dhup' (Marathi). ("The Indian Sword", P.Rawson, 1969, p.30,p.90).Trying to categorize these, just as with most ethnographic weapons, by term, is usually pure folly. The straight blade on these swords seems to have been regarded in many cases as for representations of authority, court officials, and often soldiers or warriors of high esteem....apparently the variation had some significance. It would seem this blade is a copied version of possibly the Sudanese kaskara blades, as far as fullering that is. Interestingly, I have seen Indian swords with 'kaskara or Sudanese' blades, or actually those of the form which were exported heavily into Sudan from Europe. In some cases these were with 'tulwar' hilts, some 'pata' etc. That would suggest there was enough diffusion and interaction with trade between these spheres to bring about these kinds of circumstances. Thus, a dhup/sukhela sword with probably Indian made approximation of either a Sudanese blade or its European counterpart. The 'firangi' term is used only collectively to describe any sword with a 'foreign' blade, regardless of overall sword form.

3rd September 2021, 12:21 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Jim, Thanks for your contribution. Much appreciated. Yes I would perhaps call this a Sukhela but any illustration I can find suggests that the Sukhela blade has paralel sides rather than tapered from the hilt as this blade is. I am not (necessarily) trying to get a concise ID of this sword but simply to see if anyone else has (or has seen) this particular variant. Stu

3rd September 2021, 02:58 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	[QUOTE=corrado26;265793]Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration[/QUOTE Interesting example Udo, and I see what you mean, those parallel fullers which are irregularly drawn (though four) suggest Indian workmanship on blade.

3rd September 2021, 06:08 AM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Once again thank you Jim. The pics you posted show several different types of blades (some look to be repurposed) so the subject blade which sold here could also be a repurposed blade, or made in India to resemble a Takouba blade. I agree with your comments regarding Indian weapons....quite a mine field really as there are just so many of them. Hope you are OK with the wild weather and the virus in the U.S. Stu

3rd September 2021, 09:12 AM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade. Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.

3rd September 2021, 01:24 PM	#12
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Sukhela - a kind of steel. Dhoop - a representative sword that can be held like a staff (as Jim correctly wrote). Indian talwar with a blade of Persian, European, African and so on production, made in accordance with Indian traditions in India - this is an Indian talwar. I saw in the thread no facts why this blade could not have been made in India.