UNUSUAL TULWAR for COMMENT

Mercenary · 1st September 2021, 02:17 PM

This is a very interesting and unusual talwar. If its length were more than 120 cm, then we could boldly call it as "dhōp".

Ian · 2nd September 2021, 02:18 AM

Hi Stu,

This does look like a firangi (foreign) blade, but I would not exclude the possibility that it was a local copy. Most firangi I have seen were longer than the usual tulwar. Hard to judge age, but it does not look recent.

Ian.

Mercenary · 2nd September 2021, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

This does look like a firangi (foreign) blade

Why?

corrado26 · 2nd September 2021, 05:52 PM

Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration

Kubur · 2nd September 2021, 07:46 PM

I have Indian blades with the same fullers...
Yes, Indians imitated European blades, nothing new.
If Tuaregs can do it, of course, Indians can do it too!
I agree with Mercenary, Firangi means nothing, just foreigner and the Indian swords called firangi have a basket hilt...

kahnjar1 · 2nd September 2021, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I have Indian blades with the same fullers...
Yes, Indians imitated European blades, nothing new.
If Tuaregs can do it, of course, Indians can do it too!
I agree with Mercenary, Firangi means nothing, just foreigner and the Indian swords called firangi have a basket hilt...

What hilts are your fullered blades on? Do you have any blades like this with TULWAR hilts. If so could you please post some pics.

I was hoping that this thread would comment on the particular blade/hilt combination as I have not been able to find any other pics or reference to Tulwars like this.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 2nd September 2021, 10:13 PM

My initial thought in seeing this example, I thought perhaps this was a Sudanese kaskara blade mounted in a tulwar hilt. However, while the crudely drawn central triple fullers resemble those on the blades commonly seen on these, the blade fans out toward the hilt, while kaskara blades remain uniform.

A 'straight' blade 'tulwar' (Indo-Persian hilt) is known in Hindu as 'sukhela', and to the south in Deccan as 'dhup' (Marathi). ("The Indian Sword", P.Rawson, 1969, p.30,p.90).Trying to categorize these, just as with most ethnographic weapons, by term, is usually pure folly.

The straight blade on these swords seems to have been regarded in many cases as for representations of authority, court officials, and often soldiers or warriors of high esteem....apparently the variation had some significance.

It would seem this blade is a copied version of possibly the Sudanese kaskara blades, as far as fullering that is. Interestingly, I have seen Indian swords with 'kaskara or Sudanese' blades, or actually those of the form which were exported heavily into Sudan from Europe. In some cases these were with 'tulwar' hilts, some 'pata' etc.
That would suggest there was enough diffusion and interaction with trade between these spheres to bring about these kinds of circumstances.

Thus, a dhup/sukhela sword with probably Indian made approximation of either a Sudanese blade or its European counterpart. The 'firangi' term is used only collectively to describe any sword with a 'foreign' blade, regardless of overall sword form.

Kubur · 3rd September 2021, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I was hoping that this thread would comment on the particular blade/hilt combination as I have not been able to find any other pics or reference to Tulwars like this.
Stu

To come back to your question Stu, the blade looks South Indian and the hilt North Indian.
Now is this combination done later in an "English lab" for sale?
an "Indian lab" for tourists with two old parts?
Or a geniune product from the 18th or 19th c.
Well I don't know...

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 02:58 AM

[QUOTE=corrado26;265793]Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration[/QUOTE

Interesting example Udo, and I see what you mean, those parallel fullers which are irregularly drawn (though four) suggest Indian workmanship on blade.

kahnjar1 · 3rd September 2021, 06:08 AM

Once again thank you Jim. The pics you posted show several different types of blades (some look to be repurposed) so the subject blade which sold here could also be a repurposed blade, or made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.
I agree with your comments regarding Indian weapons....quite a mine field really as there are just so many of them.
Hope you are OK with the wild weather and the virus in the U.S.
Stu

Kubur · 3rd September 2021, 09:12 AM

Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.

Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.

Jim McDougall · 3rd September 2021, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Once again thank you Jim. The pics you posted show several different types of blades (some look to be repurposed) so the subject blade which sold here could also be a repurposed blade, or made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.
I agree with your comments regarding Indian weapons....quite a mine field really as there are just so many of them.
Hope you are OK with the wild weather and the virus in the U.S.
Stu

Thank you Stu! All OK, wild weather is expected this time of year, but of course nobody gets used to it......resilient yes, complacent no. We are lucky in this part of Texas our area is not like the metropolitan cities where certain political mindsets run rampant and the population issues are a factor.
My daughter is a nurse and handles elderly patients etc. so she has had it rough, not because of hard work, but losing patients. She takes it hard.

Im really glad you posted this example, we need more Indian weapons as we always learn more each one we discuss.

All the best, you guys stay safe OK
Jim

2nd September 2021, 05:52 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration Attached Images

1st September 2021, 02:17 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	This is a very interesting and unusual talwar. If its length were more than 120 cm, then we could boldly call it as "dhōp".

2nd September 2021, 02:18 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Hi Stu, This does look like a firangi (foreign) blade, but I would not exclude the possibility that it was a local copy. Most firangi I have seen were longer than the usual tulwar. Hard to judge age, but it does not look recent. Ian.

2nd September 2021, 07:46 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I have Indian blades with the same fullers... Yes, Indians imitated European blades, nothing new. If Tuaregs can do it, of course, Indians can do it too! I agree with Mercenary, Firangi means nothing, just foreigner and the Indian swords called firangi have a basket hilt...

2nd September 2021, 10:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	My initial thought in seeing this example, I thought perhaps this was a Sudanese kaskara blade mounted in a tulwar hilt. However, while the crudely drawn central triple fullers resemble those on the blades commonly seen on these, the blade fans out toward the hilt, while kaskara blades remain uniform. A 'straight' blade 'tulwar' (Indo-Persian hilt) is known in Hindu as 'sukhela', and to the south in Deccan as 'dhup' (Marathi). ("The Indian Sword", P.Rawson, 1969, p.30,p.90).Trying to categorize these, just as with most ethnographic weapons, by term, is usually pure folly. The straight blade on these swords seems to have been regarded in many cases as for representations of authority, court officials, and often soldiers or warriors of high esteem....apparently the variation had some significance. It would seem this blade is a copied version of possibly the Sudanese kaskara blades, as far as fullering that is. Interestingly, I have seen Indian swords with 'kaskara or Sudanese' blades, or actually those of the form which were exported heavily into Sudan from Europe. In some cases these were with 'tulwar' hilts, some 'pata' etc. That would suggest there was enough diffusion and interaction with trade between these spheres to bring about these kinds of circumstances. Thus, a dhup/sukhela sword with probably Indian made approximation of either a Sudanese blade or its European counterpart. The 'firangi' term is used only collectively to describe any sword with a 'foreign' blade, regardless of overall sword form.

3rd September 2021, 02:58 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	[QUOTE=corrado26;265793]Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration[/QUOTE Interesting example Udo, and I see what you mean, those parallel fullers which are irregularly drawn (though four) suggest Indian workmanship on blade.

3rd September 2021, 06:08 AM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Once again thank you Jim. The pics you posted show several different types of blades (some look to be repurposed) so the subject blade which sold here could also be a repurposed blade, or made in India to resemble a Takouba blade. I agree with your comments regarding Indian weapons....quite a mine field really as there are just so many of them. Hope you are OK with the wild weather and the virus in the U.S. Stu

3rd September 2021, 09:12 AM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade. Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.