Joseph Ebert gun early 18th century, made in Czechoslovakia

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Bob A

While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)

I'll do that right away. I had to shrink them quite a bit so I'll figure out and upload shortly I had it all on Google drive at 108 mp so it's been a challenge to shrink 🙂

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by tscheidt

I'll do that right away. I had to shrink them quite a bit so I'll figure out and upload shortly I had it all on Google drive at 108 mp so it's been a challenge to shrink 🙂

Here are more detailed pics. Sorry for the original post. Hope someone can help.


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by tscheidt

Here are more detailed pics. Sorry for the original post. Hope someone can help..

Pictures upright now, Larry -

[fernando]

Are you guys considering that, once this gun was originally a flintlock, the hammer would not have been that of the spitfire dog but something different ? And, for the same reason, even the Ebert name would have not originally been there, as it would be senselessly hidden under the frizzen spring ?
And so was part of the front decoration ?
I know all this is foolish but ... don't tie me to the whipping post .


.

[Peter Hudson]

Ebert Gun . Please seehttps://lsbauctions.com/954/beautiful-pair-of-p-ebert-sohne-suhl-pistols-50-caliber-percussion-target-pistols-antique/ for a pair of target pistols of P.Ebert Your exhibit could be an Ebert...and I noted looking at the web quite a variety of work by that gunmaker. I agree that a useful photo shot may be over the top of the breach where many gun smiths placed their names etc. I have never fired a 50 cal piston but imagine quite a recoil !!
Peter Hudson

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Ebert Gun . Please seehttps://lsbauctions.com/954/beautiful-pair-of-p-ebert-sohne-suhl-pistols-50-caliber-percussion-target-pistols-antique/ for a pair of target pistols of P.Ebert Your exhibit could be an Ebert...and I noted looking at the web quite a variety of work by that gunmaker. I agree that a useful photo shot may be over the top of the breach where many gun smiths placed their names etc. I have never fired a 50 cal piston but imagine quite a recoil !!
Peter Hudson

Thanks Pete. There are so many striking similarities but then so many questions?

Who is Joseph. MR initials etc. New pics have greater detail. I screwed up my photo sizing and it made copies instead of shrinking .

Not sure if drive posts are allowed when not main thread but here.. if you don't want to wait for the admin approval of my pics. Also, I purchased these at the auction. They are not still for sale.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...wv01WLxtOlWDRh

[Peter Hudson]

Originally Posted by tscheidt

Thanks Pete. There are so many striking similarities but then so many questions?

Who is Joseph. MR initials etc. New pics have greater detail. I screwed up my photo sizing and it made copies instead of shrinking .

Not sure if drive posts are allowed when not main thread but here.. if you don't want to wait for the admin approval of my pics. Also, I purchased these at the auction. They are not still for sale.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...wv01WLxtOlWDRh

Hello tscheidt, Meanwhile I have a possible maker see https://www.olympiaauctions.com/sale.../view-lot/291/ Note that this item 291 is sold thus is ok to look at for forum purposes...There you can see the maker German ... KEHLNER etc etc and with PRAG inscribed.
Regards Peter Hudson

[Peter Hudson]

iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.

[Will M]

would be nice to see this pistol in its original flintlock configuration.

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Will M

would be nice to see this pistol in its original flintlock configuration.

Interesting you say that. I recieved this reply from someone who specializes in Ebert guns.


My first impression of the gun is that it was originally a Flintlock (notice the root of the cut off pan still remining below the percussion drum), converted to Percussion, secondly that the lock design does not say to me that it is central Germany but further east. Eugene Heer's book-Der Neue Stockel cites-"Joseph Ebert, Prag (Praha)/CS, ca. 1710-1740. I believe that the "APRAG" means "at Prag". Similarly some early guns are found marked ASUHL which can be read as made "AT SUHL". The engraving is very interesting but I don't think the gun has any connection to India. The engraving may refer to events happening in the late 17th or early 18th Century.

With Best Regards;

Larry B.Schuknecht

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.

On both sides of the weapon. But I've seen that kehlner wording or name somewhere in relation to the Ebert name I think. ?

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.

I think you are trying to read too much into some aspects of the gun, the early engravers were very creative but their goal was to decorate not record historical events particularly although that did occasionally happen on guns dedicated to an individual for heroism. Many of the old guns had markings which are now of no known meaning. Knowing that it was made by Joseph Ebert of Prag, Checkoslavakia in the first half of the 18th Century is more than we can come up with in may instances.

I have attached a scann of the Eberts in the Heer's Der Neue Stockel so you can see that there were quite a few Eberts spread all over Europe and these are the recorded ones so it was a somewhat prolific gunmaking family

This is from the guy who had the site dedicated to the Ebert's line of gun makers.

Still leaves me with more questions than answers. Who's initials? There has to be a reason for the initials. As well as 2 people tied to a pole doesn't feel like artistic expression.

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.

Apparently a part of the line of Ebert gun makers

[tscheidt]

In these pics you can see the name etc.

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by tscheidt

In these pics you can see the name etc.

Can I somehow change the title to
Joseph Ebert gun early 18th century, made in Czechoslovakia.

[Ian]

Done ...

[Jim McDougall]

I am curious on the definitions of the word APRAG. What source describes this word in Hindi? also how is this word translated to STANDPAT in English?
I do appreciate the inclusion of this research, but am unable to locate corroboration.

As far as the pistol being German made, and in English context that is quite understandable. English officers, who of course provided their own weapons, often commissioned custom inscriptions.
It is indeed compelling to consider these bound, turbaned figures as rebels of the 1857 insurrection in India, but puzzling why such a patriotic slogan and these figures would be on an English gun (though German made).

I cannot see the name or term Lakshmibai on the gun, where is it located?
The 'dragon' on the hammer arms seems to be a dog rather than dragon.

Perhaps this gun was for someone who remained allied to the British?
but then why celebrate the act of rebelling with the term 'standpat'?
The idea of a Hindu leader or person of status having such a pistol seems rather unlikely.

Perhaps there were British who opposed the actions to suppress the rebellion? It's not as if we dont have such opposition against war or authoritarian control these days. Perhaps a pacifist in this case?
Just thoughts on the perplexing motif on this pistol, and not meant to stir editorial reactions.

[corrado26]

For me this "APRAGA" is wrongly written and should to be read as "A PRAGA" the French version of "in the city of Prag", what is fitting to Joseph Ebert. who has been working at Prag.
corrado26

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am curious on the definitions of the word APRAG. What source describes this word in Hindi? also how is this word translated to STANDPAT in English?
I do appreciate the inclusion of this research, but am unable to locate corroboration.

As far as the pistol being German made, and in English context that is quite understandable. English officers, who of course provided their own weapons, often commissioned custom inscriptions.
It is indeed compelling to consider these bound, turbaned figures as rebels of the 1857 insurrection in India, but puzzling why such a patriotic slogan and these figures would be on an English gun (though German made).

I cannot see the name or term Lakshmibai on the gun, where is it located?
The 'dragon' on the hammer arms seems to be a dog rather than dragon.

Perhaps this gun was for someone who remained allied to the British?
but then why celebrate the act of rebelling with the term 'standpat'?
The idea of a Hindu leader or person of status having such a pistol seems rather unlikely.

Perhaps there were British who opposed the actions to suppress the rebellion? It's not as if we dont have such opposition against war or authoritarian control these days. Perhaps a pacifist in this case?
Just thoughts on the perplexing motif on this pistol, and not meant to stir editorial reactions.

https://dict.hinkhoj.com/aprag-meaning-in-hindi.words

I could be off on all that translation and have now seen numerous reasons why it is likely made in Prague. The Ebert timeline etc. So it looks more and more the Indian rebellion is a dead end.

Lakshmibai was the symbol of the Rebellion. With the Hindi track someone noticed that the depictions of her looked similar.

So we are looking at the above timeline in Prague by the looks of it.

[tscheidt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am curious on the definitions of the word APRAG. What source describes this word in Hindi? also how is this word translated to STANDPAT in English?
I do appreciate the inclusion of this research, but am unable to locate corroboration.

As far as the pistol being German made, and in English context that is quite understandable. English officers, who of course provided their own weapons, often commissioned custom inscriptions.
It is indeed compelling to consider these bound, turbaned figures as rebels of the 1857 insurrection in India, but puzzling why such a patriotic slogan and these figures would be on an English gun (though German made).

I cannot see the name or term Lakshmibai on the gun, where is it located?
The 'dragon' on the hammer arms seems to be a dog rather than dragon.

Perhaps this gun was for someone who remained allied to the British?
but then why celebrate the act of rebelling with the term 'standpat'?
The idea of a Hindu leader or person of status having such a pistol seems rather unlikely.

Perhaps there were British who opposed the actions to suppress the rebellion? It's not as if we dont have such opposition against war or authoritarian control these days. Perhaps a pacifist in this case?
Just thoughts on the perplexing motif on this pistol, and not meant to stir editorial reactions.

I looked in better lighting and it appears that the people tied to the pole are wearing some sort of turban with feathers? coming from the center above the forehead.