English blades

fernando · 15th August 2021, 07:45 PM

Like for whisky and textiles, you chose a place near a river where the water is pure and full of properties, to install your mill.
Toledan sword smiths and cuttlers may not have chosen the place but they have benefitted from the Tagus river waters. Apparently the Romans envied their results; those which derived from not only the Tagus but from their demanding for a reliable raw material, that from the Mondragon mines. But was is more accentuated as techiques go, is the Tagus waters ... and its sands (where gold abunded and all ?). This is where history is cocktailed between the magic properties of the river and the extremely complex skill they used to forge their blades; to a point in that they (the early ones) wouldn't know if the result was achieved by their own ability alone or the magic resided in the river waters.

.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2021, 11:21 PM

A very good note Fernando, and the access to running water is key to placement of mills, of course to turn the machinery.
This is noted in references to various blade forging places, and there are numbers of thoughts and suggestions of quality achieved by the 'magical properties ' of the water and/or minerals etc. in it.

This was not lost to writers and romanticized notions,

"...a sword of icebrook temper, of the very best quality. The Spaniards used to plunge their swords and other weapons while hot from the forge into the brook Salo (Xalon) near Bilbilis in Celtiberia to harden them. The water of this brook is very cold. It is a sword of Spain, the ice brook temper".
-Shakespeare, Othello v.2
from "Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" E.Cobham Brewer, (1894).

As you know the term 'bilbo' was commonly used for various Spanish swords (Im not sure if Portugal used the same term) in 17th, 18th c.
There has been notable debate on the origin of the term, many thinking it has to do with Bilbao in Basque country, but there is some mention of the Bilbilis having association.

The water is indeed a most important factor as you point out, in addition to the raw materials needed to forge steel and iron.

fernando · 16th August 2021, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... As you know the term 'bilbo' was commonly used for various Spanish swords (Im not sure if Portugal used the same term) in 17th, 18th c.
.

The term 'bilbo' when adopted for swords typology is an english speaking attribution. It is not used as such by Portuguese ... and neither by Spanish, i guess.

fernando · 16th August 2021, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... There has been notable debate on the origin of the term, many thinking it has to do with Bilbao in Basque country, but there is some mention of the Bilbilis having association ...

It should have to do only with the Basque; actually the (non weapon) bilbo term also exists in Basque.
Augusta Bilbilis was already renamed Calatayud (Qal'at 'Ayyūb) when the Moors imposed their castle in the VIII century; indeed a place also of skilled arms makers, in the route between Zaragoza and Toledo.

Edward C. · 17th August 2021, 06:07 AM

I cannot remember where I read it- there was a difference in the forge fuel- coke vs charcoal? coal vs charcoal? not sure. Anyway, one of the common English fuels was introducing a trace element like phosphorus or sulfur into the steel and weakening it. There was some discussion of this regarding anchor chain iron or similar as well. IIRC.

urbanspaceman · 17th August 2021, 01:49 PM

In response to the query about Solingen's superior output, here is a short explanation:
In the 16th century, the forging technique in Solingen was already quite advanced in its development and Wilhelm Weyersberg, the ancestor of one of the WKC founders, became mayor of the city of Solingen. During this period, the so called "Solingen method" was invented, which in effect was a division of labour between the guilds in town. Each guild specialized in one part of the sword making production process, e.g. the forging of blades, grinding or hardening. Each process was strictly separated and executed by different persons- no person performed more than one job. These persons specialized in their fields and became experts which then led to an extraordinary high level of blade and sword quality. Their knowledge was passed down from generation to generation and not shared with anyone outside of their particular gild. The only way to join one of these gilds was to be recommended by one of the current members and these positions were mainly filled by family members who were deemed to be trustworthy.
The book that got me started researching the history of the German swordmakers of Shotley Bridge is by David Richardson in 1973. He, and he alone, declares that the waters of the river Derwent, used for quenching, were/are 'radioactive' like the Tagus. This is a contentious statement, but one of very great interest. He does not indicate where he learned this fact; and during my 6+ years of research, I have never found any previous reference to it; a statement also made by subsequent researchers.
Concerning quenching, here is a paragraph from my book on Shotley Bridge swordmakers:
According to Dr. Helmut Nickel, curator of the Arms and Armour Division of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, legend had it that the best blades were quenched in ''dragon blood''. However, a little closer to reality – but only just – in a letter to the museum, a Pakistani gentleman told of a sword held in his family for many generations that was quenched by its Afghan makers in donkey urine. This concurs with some medieval blade-smiths over here who recommended the urine of redheaded boys; or, even more realistically, from ''three-year-old goats fed only ferns for three days''.
Were scientists to analyze these bodily fluids, they may well discover the presence of elements pertinent to metallurgy; then again, they may not have the time, nor inclination, to start breeding goats… or red headed boys!
Around 500bCe the Celtiberians (i.e. Celts from Iberia) were mixing hard and soft metals in the blade forging process. These swords were acquired by the Phoenicians and would eventually end up in Roman hands during the Punic wars.
At about the same time (it is so-far established) Wootz was being produced in Sri Lanka and Southern India.
A display case in Bamburgh Castle in Northumberland shows two fragments of sword blades: one using a twisted pattern-weld and the other a herringbone weld. Both these blades were compliments of Viking attacks. The Vikings copied techniques descended from the Celtiberians.
We could have learned from this science, but as far as I am aware, we didn't. That is my question: why?
The Germans took advantage of the Christian crusades to discover the techniques of the Damascus version of Wootz. We were there too but didn't do the same... why?
One point in mitigation is the property of the iron mined in the hills around Solingen and processed in Remscheid, which contained high amounts of Manganese and produced superior results to the iron mined around Shotley Bridge for example which was detrimentally high in sulphur.
For the most part, England used Bar Iron from Sweden, but had also used iron from other European locations until wars prohibited this.
Is it possible that the availability of good iron was out-weighed by the ready availability of fine blades: i.e. why import the raw material when you can import the finished product?
Incidentally, charcoal produces a higher temperature compared with coal; but Queen Elizabeth had restrained the destruction of our forests: the ratio of trees to quality iron was tragic.
The world history of iron and steel fills shelf after library shelf of literature and is only undertaken by time-rich, totally dedicated souls. I have more books on the iron and steel industry than I do on the sword industry and yet I barely scratch the surface.
All of the above is presented for scrutiny and correction where necessary.

fernando · 17th August 2021, 03:10 PM

I notice that you enjoy studying (sword) blade technicalities. Pity that a couple comprehensive papers on the 'secrets' of Toledo blade forging are only written in Spanish (Castillian). Still i upload a PDF of one of them here, hoping you will find a way to have it translated.The other one is too heavy (9.99 MB) and not possible to upload here. It may only be possible to send by email ... if of interest.

.

urbanspaceman · 17th August 2021, 07:23 PM

Thank-you Fernando. I ran it through Google Translate and got an 85% accuracy.
Unfortunately, with so much technical content the translator was unable to achieve a usable result.
If I had a greater understanding of the science I might have been able to fill in the gaps, but I'm afraid I don't.
Non-the-less, it was kind of you to help and I appreciate it; thanks again, Keith.

15th August 2021, 07:45 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Tticks, techniques ... and legends Like for whisky and textiles, you chose a place near a river where the water is pure and full of properties, to install your mill. Toledan sword smiths and cuttlers may not have chosen the place but they have benefitted from the Tagus river waters. Apparently the Romans envied their results; those which derived from not only the Tagus but from their demanding for a reliable raw material, that from the Mondragon mines. But was is more accentuated as techiques go, is the Tagus waters ... and its sands (where gold abunded and all ?). This is where history is cocktailed between the magic properties of the river and the extremely complex skill they used to forge their blades; to a point in that they (the early ones) wouldn't know if the result was achieved by their own ability alone or the magic resided in the river waters. . Attached Images

17th August 2021, 01:49 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Myth, magic and metals In response to the query about Solingen's superior output, here is a short explanation: In the 16th century, the forging technique in Solingen was already quite advanced in its development and Wilhelm Weyersberg, the ancestor of one of the WKC founders, became mayor of the city of Solingen. During this period, the so called "Solingen method" was invented, which in effect was a division of labour between the guilds in town. Each guild specialized in one part of the sword making production process, e.g. the forging of blades, grinding or hardening. Each process was strictly separated and executed by different persons- no person performed more than one job. These persons specialized in their fields and became experts which then led to an extraordinary high level of blade and sword quality. Their knowledge was passed down from generation to generation and not shared with anyone outside of their particular gild. The only way to join one of these gilds was to be recommended by one of the current members and these positions were mainly filled by family members who were deemed to be trustworthy. The book that got me started researching the history of the German swordmakers of Shotley Bridge is by David Richardson in 1973. He, and he alone, declares that the waters of the river Derwent, used for quenching, were/are 'radioactive' like the Tagus. This is a contentious statement, but one of very great interest. He does not indicate where he learned this fact; and during my 6+ years of research, I have never found any previous reference to it; a statement also made by subsequent researchers. Concerning quenching, here is a paragraph from my book on Shotley Bridge swordmakers: According to Dr. Helmut Nickel, curator of the Arms and Armour Division of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, legend had it that the best blades were quenched in ''dragon blood''. However, a little closer to reality – but only just – in a letter to the museum, a Pakistani gentleman told of a sword held in his family for many generations that was quenched by its Afghan makers in donkey urine. This concurs with some medieval blade-smiths over here who recommended the urine of redheaded boys; or, even more realistically, from ''three-year-old goats fed only ferns for three days''. Were scientists to analyze these bodily fluids, they may well discover the presence of elements pertinent to metallurgy; then again, they may not have the time, nor inclination, to start breeding goats… or red headed boys! Around 500bCe the Celtiberians (i.e. Celts from Iberia) were mixing hard and soft metals in the blade forging process. These swords were acquired by the Phoenicians and would eventually end up in Roman hands during the Punic wars. At about the same time (it is so-far established) Wootz was being produced in Sri Lanka and Southern India. A display case in Bamburgh Castle in Northumberland shows two fragments of sword blades: one using a twisted pattern-weld and the other a herringbone weld. Both these blades were compliments of Viking attacks. The Vikings copied techniques descended from the Celtiberians. We could have learned from this science, but as far as I am aware, we didn't. That is my question: why? The Germans took advantage of the Christian crusades to discover the techniques of the Damascus version of Wootz. We were there too but didn't do the same... why? One point in mitigation is the property of the iron mined in the hills around Solingen and processed in Remscheid, which contained high amounts of Manganese and produced superior results to the iron mined around Shotley Bridge for example which was detrimentally high in sulphur. For the most part, England used Bar Iron from Sweden, but had also used iron from other European locations until wars prohibited this. Is it possible that the availability of good iron was out-weighed by the ready availability of fine blades: i.e. why import the raw material when you can import the finished product? Incidentally, charcoal produces a higher temperature compared with coal; but Queen Elizabeth had restrained the destruction of our forests: the ratio of trees to quality iron was tragic. The world history of iron and steel fills shelf after library shelf of literature and is only undertaken by time-rich, totally dedicated souls. I have more books on the iron and steel industry than I do on the sword industry and yet I barely scratch the surface. All of the above is presented for scrutiny and correction where necessary.

17th August 2021, 07:23 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Toledo blade science Thank-you Fernando. I ran it through Google Translate and got an 85% accuracy. Unfortunately, with so much technical content the translator was unable to achieve a usable result. If I had a greater understanding of the science I might have been able to fill in the gaps, but I'm afraid I don't. Non-the-less, it was kind of you to help and I appreciate it; thanks again, Keith.

15th August 2021, 11:21 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	A very good note Fernando, and the access to running water is key to placement of mills, of course to turn the machinery. This is noted in references to various blade forging places, and there are numbers of thoughts and suggestions of quality achieved by the 'magical properties ' of the water and/or minerals etc. in it. This was not lost to writers and romanticized notions, "...a sword of icebrook temper, of the very best quality. The Spaniards used to plunge their swords and other weapons while hot from the forge into the brook Salo (Xalon) near Bilbilis in Celtiberia to harden them. The water of this brook is very cold. It is a sword of Spain, the ice brook temper". -Shakespeare, Othello v.2 from "Brewers Dictionary of Phrase and Fable" E.Cobham Brewer, (1894). As you know the term 'bilbo' was commonly used for various Spanish swords (Im not sure if Portugal used the same term) in 17th, 18th c. There has been notable debate on the origin of the term, many thinking it has to do with Bilbao in Basque country, but there is some mention of the Bilbilis having association. The water is indeed a most important factor as you point out, in addition to the raw materials needed to forge steel and iron.

17th August 2021, 06:07 AM	#5
Edward C. Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 15	I cannot remember where I read it- there was a difference in the forge fuel- coke vs charcoal? coal vs charcoal? not sure. Anyway, one of the common English fuels was introducing a trace element like phosphorus or sulfur into the steel and weakening it. There was some discussion of this regarding anchor chain iron or similar as well. IIRC.