British 1803 pattern flank officer sword?

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2021, 03:52 PM

Great comments and on point observations. I agree with this probably being a band hanger or of that genre as suggested by David R. Well noted by Richard and Wayne on the possible law enforcement use and Richards note on later Parker Field swords for the law enforcement of the years into mid 19th and beyond, this is a field of edged weapons not well traveled.

The 'warranted' inscription does not really have to do with battle 'testing' but came from the 'sword scandals' in late 1780s in England. A group of English blade makers, led by Birmingham swordsmith Thomas Gill began protesting the long standing practice of importing blades from Germany.
He claimed the English blades were as good and actually better than the German imports, and initiated testing to prove it.

In the subsequent testing of his blades and several others including Henry Osborn, it was proven as only several of the English blades failed where the failures in the numbers of German blades were considerable.

From here, beginning with Thomas Gill, he began to place the motto on the blade, 'WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL'. I have a M1788 Thomas Gill saber
with that inscription on the back of the blade. Through the 1790s as late as perhaps 1810, he and several English makers would place the 'warranted' notice on their blades, though typically officers along with etched or inscribed motif.

Officers swords were well decorated, and typically not exactly 'combat' oriented, as in those times officers were not expected to participate in the action, but their swords were mostly used to 'direct' etc. Naturally, that was not always the case, but I have always noticed officers blades were in many instances notably shorter, though by only about 5 ".

In this I agree with Cel7, the warranted signifies the testing of the blade quality, not combat readiness.

Bryce · 15th August 2021, 09:44 PM

G'day Guys,
My 5 cents worth. The grip and knuckleguard are unusual for a sword of this time period. The rounded knucklebow/guard remind me of later constabulary hangers, but I guess is also similar to the rounded knucklebow of some 1803's. The scabbard has almost certainly been shortened as the scabbard chape does not match the locket. The full length fuller is often seen on earlier blades, but is unusual in a blade of this period. I think the blade has been shortened, but it obviously wasn't done recently. I guess there is no sign of a maker's name on the other side of the blade? I think it started out life as a normal sized sword that was later shortened. What is the width at the ricasso?
Cheers,
Bryce

cel7 · 15th August 2021, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Guys,
My 5 cents worth. The grip and knuckleguard are unusual for a sword of this time period. The rounded knucklebow/guard remind me of later constabulary hangers, but I guess is also similar to the rounded knucklebow of some 1803's. The scabbard has almost certainly been shortened as the scabbard chape does not match the locket. The full length fuller is often seen on earlier blades, but is unusual in a blade of this period. I think the blade has been shortened, but it obviously wasn't done recently. I guess there is no sign of a maker's name on the other side of the blade? I think it started out life as a normal sized sword that was later shortened. What is the width at the ricasso?
Cheers,
Bryce

Unfortunately no maker's name Bryce, the ricasso is 37mm width and 8mm thick.

cel7 · 15th August 2021, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great comments and on point observations. I agree with this probably being a band hanger or of that genre as suggested by David R. Well noted by Richard and Wayne on the possible law enforcement use and Richards note on later Parker Field swords for the law enforcement of the years into mid 19th and beyond, this is a field of edged weapons not well traveled.

The 'warranted' inscription does not really have to do with battle 'testing' but came from the 'sword scandals' in late 1780s in England. A group of English blade makers, led by Birmingham swordsmith Thomas Gill began protesting the long standing practice of importing blades from Germany.
He claimed the English blades were as good and actually better than the German imports, and initiated testing to prove it.

In the subsequent testing of his blades and several others including Henry Osborn, it was proven as only several of the English blades failed where the failures in the numbers of German blades were considerable.

From here, beginning with Thomas Gill, he began to place the motto on the blade, 'WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL'. I have a M1788 Thomas Gill saber
with that inscription on the back of the blade. Through the 1790s as late as perhaps 1810, he and several English makers would place the 'warranted' notice on their blades, though typically officers along with etched or inscribed motif.

Officers swords were well decorated, and typically not exactly 'combat' oriented, as in those times officers were not expected to participate in the action, but their swords were mostly used to 'direct' etc. Naturally, that was not always the case, but I have always noticed officers blades were in many instances notably shorter, though by only about 5 ".

In this I agree with Cel7, the warranted signifies the testing of the blade quality, not combat readiness.

Thanks for your excellent explanation Jim.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2021, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cel7

Thanks for your excellent explanation Jim.

Thank you Cel7 !

Bryce · 16th August 2021, 01:58 AM

Thanks mate,
37mm puts it in the range of normal sized swords. If it started out life this short I would have expected it to be a bit narrower than this. Doesn't tell us when the shortening was carried out though.
Cheers,
Bryce

cel7 · 16th August 2021, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

Thanks mate,
37mm puts it in the range of normal sized swords. If it started out life this short I would have expected it to be a bit narrower than this. Doesn't tell us when the shortening was carried out though.
Cheers,
Bryce

I think you have a good point here Bryce! I compared it with two other short sabers that I have that have roughly the same length of blade.
The width and thickness of the blade at the base of the ricasso are less with the other two. Also the point of balance of the saber we discuss here is way to close to the hilt compared with the two others of which I'm sure have the original length. 7 cm that is, compared to 10 cm for the Briquette and 12,5 for the one on the left hand site.

toaster5sqn · 17th August 2021, 10:29 AM

The engraving on the blade seems to say officers sword more than police hanger. Also the shot of it in comparison with the other two hangers shows that if it has been shortened then its original curve was quite extreme. Wildly varying amounts of curvature were another feature of the pre 1803 sabres.

Robert

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2021, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

The engraving on the blade seems to say officers sword more than police hanger. Also the shot of it in comparison with the other two hangers shows that if it has been shortened then its original curve was quite extreme. Wildly varying amounts of curvature were another feature of the pre 1803 sabres.

Robert

Thats an important observation Robert, engraving would indeed signify an officers sword.....the customs and police hangers were munitions grade.

Radboud · 26th November 2021, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

From here, beginning with Thomas Gill, he began to place the motto on the blade, 'WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL'. I have a M1788 Thomas Gill saber
with that inscription on the back of the blade. Through the 1790s as late as perhaps 1810, he and several English makers would place the 'warranted' notice on their blades, though typically officers along with etched or inscribed motif.

If it helps, I have a 1796 LC marked Gill’s Warranted that dates to no earlier than 1817.

Radboud · 26th November 2021, 10:59 AM

Interesting hanger Cel, does it have a Royal Cypher on the blade?
The markings look late 18th Century, very early 19th Century to me.

Personally I don’t think the blade has been shortened as the termination of the fuller follows the curve of the blade tip.

Cheers
Bas

kronckew · 26th November 2021, 06:57 PM

I note the original posted sword scabbard appears to have once had a stud like a scabbard for an infantry briquet/hanger frog rather than the two ring suspension for a sabre.

"Warranted never to fail"

If it fails on the battlefield/naval boarding, bring it back, and we'll replace it.

Reminds me of what they tell a Paratrooper when they issue him his parachute.

Also reminds me of mine:25" (63.5 cm) blade, 2" (5.08 cm) wide at guard: The fuller is centred down to the start of the false edge, then starts to divert down away from the point as it fades away as the blade thins.

cel7 · 26th November 2021, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

Interesting hanger Cel, does it have a Royal Cypher on the blade?
The markings look late 18th Century, very early 19th Century to me.

Personally I don’t think the blade has been shortened as the termination of the fuller follows the curve of the blade tip.

Cheers
Bas

No Royal Cypher on the blade, Radboud. Only floral motifs drums and banners

Richard G · 29th November 2021, 04:36 PM

I'm going to expound on a couple of points made earlier in this thread.

I'm not sure an engraved blade denotes officer status as such. In the UK most officer's swords were privately purchased and presumably this was the major demand. Hence if you went to a sword cutler for an individual purchase you would most probably be offered a blade of 'officer' type, i.e. decorated to greater or lesser extent, even if you were not an officer. Thus I think a decorated blade probably denotes a private purchase blade rather than one supplied through the contracting system, and not necessarily an officer's.

Depending on your definition, I would dispute that constabulary hangers etc. were of 'munitions' grade. The later Parker Field hangers, altho' rather plain were of a greater functional quality and finish than most military swords, including those of officers. This also applied to early police pistols; plain, robust, functional and in no way inferior to military issue. Also consider those early police truncheons; turned, painted, gilded, way beyond 'munitions' grade.

Prior to police reform in the early 19th Cent. Parish Constable was an ancient official position with a number of associated official duties, e.g. administration of courts. The Parish Constable might well be a landowner, merchant or businessman that would consider himself of 'officer' class. Remember the head of a UK police force is still the Chief Constable.

Other civilian weapons of the time that survive, e,g. Mail blunderbusses, Bank of England muskets, are also of 'better than they need be' quality.

The point I am making is that an early 19th Cent constable's hanger might well show similarities with an officer's sword.

Regards
Richard

Radboud · 13th December 2021, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The 'warranted' inscription does not really have to do with battle 'testing' but came from the 'sword scandals' in late 1780s in England. A group of English blade makers, led by Birmingham swordsmith Thomas Gill began protesting the long standing practice of importing blades from Germany.
He claimed the English blades were as good and actually better than the German imports, and initiated testing to prove it.

In the subsequent testing of his blades and several others including Henry Osborn, it was proven as only several of the English blades failed where the failures in the numbers of German blades were considerable.

From here, beginning with Thomas Gill, he began to place the motto on the blade, 'WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL'. I have a M1788 Thomas Gill saber
with that inscription on the back of the blade. Through the 1790s as late as perhaps 1810, he and several English makers would place the 'warranted' notice on their blades, though typically officers along with etched or inscribed motif.

This is not strictly correct. While it is true that the term "Warranted Never to Fail" originated with Thomas Gill, it did not come from the 'Sword Scandals' which actually occurred much later, towards the end of the 19th Century (Matt Easton has published a good video on this: When 'MADE IN GERMANY' meant BAD! The SWORD SCANDAL).

In the 1780s the Treasury was receiving requests from many of the London makers and suppliers to remove the duty on imported swords and blades, owing to the alleged inferior quality of English swords. Seeing his livelihood threatened Thomas Gill wrote to the treasury that his swords were as good as any coming out of Germany and requested that a test be performed comparing his blades to the imported ones. This request was passed on to the Board of Ordnance who replied that the purchasing of swords with the responsibility of the colonels of individual regiments.

Not content to leave the matter, Thomas Gill continued with his campaign to have tests taken. When, in 1786 the East India Company placed an order with various suppliers for 10,000 horsemen's swords Thomas once more called for comparative tests to be performed. In October 1786 the first tests were performed on a special machine made for the East India Shipping Committee, which included swords by Gill, Runkel, Hervey.

I'll post the results when I have them to hand later today, but needless to say, Gill's swords came out the clear favourite. Runkel's swords from Solingen came in second and quite a bit ahead of the other two which does in part support what was being claimed about the state of English sword manufacturing.

Radboud · 13th December 2021, 07:18 AM

Results of the test, as you can imagine, Woolley was not happy with the results and felt ambushed by the tests.

kronckew · 13th December 2021, 08:39 AM

What were the tests & standards to be met?

Radboud · 13th December 2021, 08:55 AM

The letter is reproduced from “The British Cavalry Sword 1788 - 1912” By Richard Dellar on pg. 285 - 286

The spine thickness was measured against a special gauge and then subjected to a bend test, one that reduced the 36 inch blade to 29 and a half from tip to hilt.

This is the first half of the letter:

kronckew · 14th December 2021, 11:31 PM

From the USA, this is essentially the British proof test with slight modifications, for the 1862 sabres.

Proof and Inspection of Swords and Sabres.

1st. The dimensions and form of the blade are verified by comparing it with the model, and by applying the appropriate gauges and patterns, for the length, width, and thickness at several points, and the curvature, if any.

2d. The blade is then proved, as follows:—1st. The point is confined by a staple, and the blade is bent on each of the flat sides over a cylindrical block, the curvature of which is that of a circle 35 inches diameter, the curvature of the part next the tang being reduced by inserting a wedge 0.7 inch thick at the head, and 14 inches long. 2d. It is struck twice, on each of the flat sides, on a block of oak wood, the curvature of which is the same as the above. 3d. It is struck twice on the edge and twice on the back across an oak block 1 foot in diameter. 4th. The point is placed on the floor and the blade bent until it describes an arc having the versed Bine indicated in the above table. After these trials, the blade is examined to see that it is free from flaws, cracks, or other imperfections, and that it is not set,—that is to say, does not remain bent.

The blade of the artillery sword is proved by striking each of the sides and edges twice on a flat block of hard oak wood.

The stamp of approval or condemnation is placed on the side of the blade, below the tang.

3d. The form, dimensions, and workmanship of the mountings are examined and compared with the model. After the blade is mounted, the sword is again examined, and it is struck four times on a hard block of wood, to test the strength of the mountings. The quality of the brass mountings may be tested by breaking a certain number, not more than 4 in each hundred, which should be taken from the pieces rejected for erroneous dimensions.

Radboud · 15th December 2021, 01:44 AM

Thanks for sharing that, kronckew.

From my understanding, the idea of centralised proof testing of swords was still in it's infancy in the late 18th Century. It wasn't until the 1796 Pattern cavalry trooper's swords that we begin to see proof marks from the government Ordnance Board.

In later quality testing, they changed the practice of bending the blade to hitting it against a cast iron bar with a spring-loaded machine. And we can begin to see the formation of what later became the standard.

26th November 2021, 06:57 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	I note the original posted sword scabbard appears to have once had a stud like a scabbard for an infantry briquet/hanger frog rather than the two ring suspension for a sabre. "Warranted never to fail" If it fails on the battlefield/naval boarding, bring it back, and we'll replace it. Reminds me of what they tell a Paratrooper when they issue him his parachute. Also reminds me of mine:25" (63.5 cm) blade, 2" (5.08 cm) wide at guard: The fuller is centred down to the start of the false edge, then starts to divert down away from the point as it fades away as the blade thins. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 26th November 2021 at 07:28 PM.

13th December 2021, 07:18 AM	#16
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 285	Results of the test, as you can imagine, Woolley was not happy with the results and felt ambushed by the tests. Attached Images

13th December 2021, 08:55 AM	#18
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 285	The letter is reproduced from “The British Cavalry Sword 1788 - 1912” By Richard Dellar on pg. 285 - 286 The spine thickness was measured against a special gauge and then subjected to a bend test, one that reduced the 36 inch blade to 29 and a half from tip to hilt. This is the first half of the letter: Attached Images

15th August 2021, 03:52 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Great comments and on point observations. I agree with this probably being a band hanger or of that genre as suggested by David R. Well noted by Richard and Wayne on the possible law enforcement use and Richards note on later Parker Field swords for the law enforcement of the years into mid 19th and beyond, this is a field of edged weapons not well traveled. The 'warranted' inscription does not really have to do with battle 'testing' but came from the 'sword scandals' in late 1780s in England. A group of English blade makers, led by Birmingham swordsmith Thomas Gill began protesting the long standing practice of importing blades from Germany. He claimed the English blades were as good and actually better than the German imports, and initiated testing to prove it. In the subsequent testing of his blades and several others including Henry Osborn, it was proven as only several of the English blades failed where the failures in the numbers of German blades were considerable. From here, beginning with Thomas Gill, he began to place the motto on the blade, 'WARRANTED NEVER TO FAIL'. I have a M1788 Thomas Gill saber with that inscription on the back of the blade. Through the 1790s as late as perhaps 1810, he and several English makers would place the 'warranted' notice on their blades, though typically officers along with etched or inscribed motif. Officers swords were well decorated, and typically not exactly 'combat' oriented, as in those times officers were not expected to participate in the action, but their swords were mostly used to 'direct' etc. Naturally, that was not always the case, but I have always noticed officers blades were in many instances notably shorter, though by only about 5 ". In this I agree with Cel7, the warranted signifies the testing of the blade quality, not combat readiness.

15th August 2021, 09:44 PM	#2
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Guys, My 5 cents worth. The grip and knuckleguard are unusual for a sword of this time period. The rounded knucklebow/guard remind me of later constabulary hangers, but I guess is also similar to the rounded knucklebow of some 1803's. The scabbard has almost certainly been shortened as the scabbard chape does not match the locket. The full length fuller is often seen on earlier blades, but is unusual in a blade of this period. I think the blade has been shortened, but it obviously wasn't done recently. I guess there is no sign of a maker's name on the other side of the blade? I think it started out life as a normal sized sword that was later shortened. What is the width at the ricasso? Cheers, Bryce

16th August 2021, 01:58 AM	#6
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	Thanks mate, 37mm puts it in the range of normal sized swords. If it started out life this short I would have expected it to be a bit narrower than this. Doesn't tell us when the shortening was carried out though. Cheers, Bryce

17th August 2021, 10:29 AM	#8
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 75	The engraving on the blade seems to say officers sword more than police hanger. Also the shot of it in comparison with the other two hangers shows that if it has been shortened then its original curve was quite extreme. Wildly varying amounts of curvature were another feature of the pre 1803 sabres. Robert

26th November 2021, 10:59 AM	#11
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 285	Interesting hanger Cel, does it have a Royal Cypher on the blade? The markings look late 18th Century, very early 19th Century to me. Personally I don’t think the blade has been shortened as the termination of the fuller follows the curve of the blade tip. Cheers Bas

29th November 2021, 04:36 PM	#14
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	I'm going to expound on a couple of points made earlier in this thread. I'm not sure an engraved blade denotes officer status as such. In the UK most officer's swords were privately purchased and presumably this was the major demand. Hence if you went to a sword cutler for an individual purchase you would most probably be offered a blade of 'officer' type, i.e. decorated to greater or lesser extent, even if you were not an officer. Thus I think a decorated blade probably denotes a private purchase blade rather than one supplied through the contracting system, and not necessarily an officer's. Depending on your definition, I would dispute that constabulary hangers etc. were of 'munitions' grade. The later Parker Field hangers, altho' rather plain were of a greater functional quality and finish than most military swords, including those of officers. This also applied to early police pistols; plain, robust, functional and in no way inferior to military issue. Also consider those early police truncheons; turned, painted, gilded, way beyond 'munitions' grade. Prior to police reform in the early 19th Cent. Parish Constable was an ancient official position with a number of associated official duties, e.g. administration of courts. The Parish Constable might well be a landowner, merchant or businessman that would consider himself of 'officer' class. Remember the head of a UK police force is still the Chief Constable. Other civilian weapons of the time that survive, e,g. Mail blunderbusses, Bank of England muskets, are also of 'better than they need be' quality. The point I am making is that an early 19th Cent constable's hanger might well show similarities with an officer's sword. Regards Richard

13th December 2021, 08:39 AM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	What were the tests & standards to be met?

14th December 2021, 11:31 PM	#19
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	From the USA, this is essentially the British proof test with slight modifications, for the 1862 sabres. Proof and Inspection of Swords and Sabres. 1st. The dimensions and form of the blade are verified by comparing it with the model, and by applying the appropriate gauges and patterns, for the length, width, and thickness at several points, and the curvature, if any. 2d. The blade is then proved, as follows:—1st. The point is confined by a staple, and the blade is bent on each of the flat sides over a cylindrical block, the curvature of which is that of a circle 35 inches diameter, the curvature of the part next the tang being reduced by inserting a wedge 0.7 inch thick at the head, and 14 inches long. 2d. It is struck twice, on each of the flat sides, on a block of oak wood, the curvature of which is the same as the above. 3d. It is struck twice on the edge and twice on the back across an oak block 1 foot in diameter. 4th. The point is placed on the floor and the blade bent until it describes an arc having the versed Bine indicated in the above table. After these trials, the blade is examined to see that it is free from flaws, cracks, or other imperfections, and that it is not set,—that is to say, does not remain bent. The blade of the artillery sword is proved by striking each of the sides and edges twice on a flat block of hard oak wood. The stamp of approval or condemnation is placed on the side of the blade, below the tang. 3d. The form, dimensions, and workmanship of the mountings are examined and compared with the model. After the blade is mounted, the sword is again examined, and it is struck four times on a hard block of wood, to test the strength of the mountings. The quality of the brass mountings may be tested by breaking a certain number, not more than 4 in each hundred, which should be taken from the pieces rejected for erroneous dimensions.

15th December 2021, 01:44 AM	#20
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 285	Thanks for sharing that, kronckew. From my understanding, the idea of centralised proof testing of swords was still in it's infancy in the late 18th Century. It wasn't until the 1796 Pattern cavalry trooper's swords that we begin to see proof marks from the government Ordnance Board. In later quality testing, they changed the practice of bending the blade to hitting it against a cast iron bar with a spring-loaded machine. And we can begin to see the formation of what later became the standard.