Meaning in a Balinese keris

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The first time I saw a similar treatment of the greneng to this one was in Mario & Vanna Ghiringhelli's Little Red Book --- the original "Invincible Keris". This keris was a cengkrong style and the caption stated that keris with this blade style, ie, cengkrong, was worn by preachers & scholars of religion & theology....
I have not seen this type of gonjo ornamentation in an old keris, only in recently made ones.

Alan, i suspect you may indeed have seen this greneng treatment before that and forgotten, on page 73 in David van Duuren's book The Kris. I suspect you have this book and i am fairly certain it came out well before the Little Red Book.
While it is difficult to be sure of a single image printed in a text it seem most likely that the keris shown in van Duuren's book is indeed at least 19th century.

[David]

Here is the example from van Duuren's book The Kris.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, David van Duuren published two editions of the "The Kris", the first was a Dutch edition published in 1996, the second was the English edition published in 1998. The keris on P.73 of the English edition is a cengkrong with the spiral, and yes, I had forgotten it. But it did come after Mario & Vanna's similar one.

Vanna Ghiringhelli published "The Invincible Krises 2" in 2007.

But in 1991 Vanna & Mario published The Little Red Book:- "Kris Gli Invincibili" ('Kris the Invincible'), the similar one I mentioned is on P.41.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, David van Duuren published two editions of the "The Kris", the first was a Dutch edition published in 1996, the second was the English edition published in 1998. The keris on P.73 of the English edition is a cengkrong with the spiral, and yes, I had forgotten it. But it did come after Mario & Vanna's similar one.

Vanna Ghiringhelli published "The Invincible Krises 2" in 2007.

But in 1991 Vanna & Mario published The Little Red Book:- "Kris Gli Invincibili" ('Kris the Invincible'), the similar one I mentioned is on P.41.

Thanks Alan. I have "The Little Red Book", but i never looked at the publishing date and i got van Duuren's book much earlier so i guess i wrongly assumed it was the older book.
But what do you think of the age of the example in van Duuren? It seems very possible to me that it is an antique example, no?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, certainly David van Duuren's example has some age, it has a collection number, and I tried to access it, but it looks as if there is a problem with access at the moment.

[Gustav]

It was donated to the Tropenmuseum in 1952.

There is a Balinese Keris with the same type of Gonjo depicted on Jasper&Mas Pirngadie, Vol. V, p. 229, Fig. 323. The Volume was published in 1930, but the materials for it were collected already before 1920.

We encounter the idea of such Gonjo also on a Javanese Pedang with Gonjo, which is certainly antique and a heirloom.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that Gustav.

It would be nice to know when that Troppenmuseum example was collected, and when the Jasper & Pirngadie example was collected. As I said, I have yet to see this gonjo treatment on an old keris, and these two additional examples are also recent.

I wonder if there might be some genuinely old examples somewhere.

Gustav, do you have a picture of the pedang you mention?

[Gustav]

Alan, I will ask the Tropenmuseum, if there is any additional information, but I think it quite surely is pre-1940.

The example from Jasper&Mas Pirngadie is pre-1930, quite surely pre-1920. It's quite close to the example from Ghiringelli in the treatment of Gonjo.

I have a picture of that Pedang, but cannot post it. You surely have seen that kind of Pedang - there is a Sekar Kacang directly above the scroll on Gonjo, Gandhik is plain.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It would be nice to know when that Troppenmuseum example was collected, and when the Jasper & Pirngadie example was collected. As I said, I have yet to see this gonjo treatment on an old keris, and these two additional examples are also recent.

I wonder if there might be some genuinely old examples somewhere.

Alan, i believe i know what your intention here with the word "old" is as you have expressed your usage of the word before, but it might be a bit problematic in general discussion, especially for people who might not be familiar with how you use the word. For most people anything antique (100 years of older) is generally considered "old". I assume your intention here is a bit older than that, yes?