Unusual Shashka

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As you say, it would seem that this impression of the 'Passau wolf' is quite specifically done and corresponds to the choppy 'Picasso' like examples of Passau and Solingen over centuries. The plate you show is of course from Wagner, 1967 and is misleading as it suggests a chronological evolution of this mark. These varied widely in execution and did not have such development but were simply interpretations by the workmen who applied them.

While the 'wolf' basically went out of use in Solingen (it had been gone from Passau for centuries) by the 18th century. At some point with the European imports of blades into the Caucusus, they began copying the European marks as symbolic of quality. The wolf was applied on the blades from Chechnya and somewhat Daghestan later, but usually the renderings were more realistic (as seen on the plate from the Russian book) ...........while the examples that lent more toward the choppy stylized form were termed 'ters maymal' . This is VERY loosely interpreted in Chechen as 'screaming monkey'.

As far as I have known, there are few examples of 'Georgian' shashka. These regions with Tiflis (now Tblisi) were more of a 'United Nations' it seems, with heavy trade and traffic from surrounding regions. There were strong commercial activities there which included production of all manner of weapons, many of the craftsmen were Armenians and other nationalities.
This suggestion of 'Georgian' is in my opinion a suggestion that it is made in Tblisi (modern).

The one thing I am troubled by on this item is the hilt material, which I cannot say for certain is ivory (I dont know enough of that material).
I have always thought that ivory tended to yellow, like bone, in time.

Absolutely WONDERFUL sword display!!

Great info about Passau/Solingen, I knew it was always a loose interpretation.

The Wolf mark is exactly the same as what is published in that Russian book, which lends it to being 19th century. The leader of the FB group thinks the blade resembles the 1881 model, but I am not sure of that myself.

The material has thoroughly confused me, a buddy of mine who's looked at it thinks it is likely either marine Ivory (possibly walrus) or mammoth, as mammoth at one point was in great supply. Ivory is new to me, I've been trying to figure it out obviously but hopefully, someone with some real experience with ivory can elucidate what better to look for.

Thank you! It has steadily grown over the past couple of years, currently, I have two on the list in my sights, an Ames 1852 Civil War era US Naval Officers sword, and most of all (has been on my list for quite some time) a French First Empire Mamelouk sabre. Just recently missed a chance to grab a stellar example because I was too slow, ugh!

[Jim McDougall]

As always, the best thing about being confronted with a conundrum like this, is is exciting to research to learn about areas one is not familiar with. The 'ivory' material used here, from my cursory research, I think is very likely to be narwhal, which seems to have the bright white color and different from elephant, mammoth or other tusk material.

With regard to this blade, while it does have the feel of one of the Russian regulation sabers such as the M1881, as I mentioned, I see no evidence of the block ricasso which is consistent on these patterns.
It seems that there was a predominance of European blade imports into the Caucusus, up to the 1850s. While the Chechens were actively producing blades, after the 1850s the Daghestanis began producing their own if I have understood correctly.

The markings on the imported European blades became prevalently copied on the blades produced in the Caucusus; with blades out of Styria using the well known dentated arcs known as 'sickle' marks (in thier parlance the Chechens called these 'gurda' =good blade).
The running wolf, which came from Solingen blades, was copied, but in more realistic form, though the stick figure choppy ones seem to have been copied as well....these termed 'ters maymal' =screaming monkey (?).

In the attached illustrations it does seem the two letters on either side of the running wolf do appear on examples of Solingen blades FROM Solingen (one by W. Clauberg) but I would point out that almost invariably, the running wolf is upside down within surrounding letters or words on German blades.

Note on your blade, the letters AND wolf are upright. This tells us that this is NOT a European blade, and I would suspect a Daghestani product which in which the wolf and letters are duplicated.
Those crosses in the inscription I noted were called 'bees'. These are copies of strange number system used in Styria termed 'antler numbers' with dots and connecting lines, so these are likely copied from Styrian blades.

So rather than a heirloom blade, I would suggest this is possibly a Dahestan made blade in the manner of the Russian regulation form, but made without ricasso as in Caucasian manner. The markings added for 'quality' impression.

The styling of the mounts are as noted 'Circassian' using the Russian skan method of metal work. It is likely these mounts are indeed vintage and silver (84) and used in remounting the shashka in composite.
While this MAY have been done in Georgia as Russian military was indeed present there, I still believe this is likely something fashioned using older components and for a ranking Russian officer.

This is in my opinion FAR from being a commercial fake, and probably a dress shashka for a Russian officer, who was quite likely with notable service in Georgia or Caucasian regions. With the leather of scabbard relatively new its hard to say whether the assembly was done early and scabbard redone or other.

Naturally I am far from having expertise in this field, but from the past several days of research these are opinions I have formed.

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As always, the best thing about being confronted with a conundrum like this, is is exciting to research to learn about areas one is not familiar with. The 'ivory' material used here, from my cursory research, I think is very likely to be narwhal, which seems to have the bright white color and different from elephant, mammoth or other tusk material.

With regard to this blade, while it does have the feel of one of the Russian regulation sabers such as the M1881, as I mentioned, I see no evidence of the block ricasso which is consistent on these patterns.
It seems that there was a predominance of European blade imports into the Caucusus, up to the 1850s. While the Chechens were actively producing blades, after the 1850s the Daghestanis began producing their own if I have understood correctly.

The markings on the imported European blades became prevalently copied on the blades produced in the Caucusus; with blades out of Styria using the well known dentated arcs known as 'sickle' marks (in thier parlance the Chechens called these 'gurda' =good blade).
The running wolf, which came from Solingen blades, was copied, but in more realistic form, though the stick figure choppy ones seem to have been copied as well....these termed 'ters maymal' =screaming monkey (?).

In the attached illustrations it does seem the two letters on either side of the running wolf do appear on examples of Solingen blades FROM Solingen (one by W. Clauberg) but I would point out that almost invariably, the running wolf is upside down within surrounding letters or words on German blades.

Note on your blade, the letters AND wolf are upright. This tells us that this is NOT a European blade, and I would suspect a Daghestani product which in which the wolf and letters are duplicated.
Those crosses in the inscription I noted were called 'bees'. These are copies of strange number system used in Styria termed 'antler numbers' with dots and connecting lines, so these are likely copied from Styrian blades.

So rather than a heirloom blade, I would suggest this is possibly a Dahestan made blade in the manner of the Russian regulation form, but made without ricasso as in Caucasian manner. The markings added for 'quality' impression.

The styling of the mounts are as noted 'Circassian' using the Russian skan method of metal work. It is likely these mounts are indeed vintage and silver (84) and used in remounting the shashka in composite.
While this MAY have been done in Georgia as Russian military was indeed present there, I still believe this is likely something fashioned using older components and for a ranking Russian officer.

This is in my opinion FAR from being a commercial fake, and probably a dress shashka for a Russian officer, who was quite likely with notable service in Georgia or Caucasian regions. With the leather of scabbard relatively new its hard to say whether the assembly was done early and scabbard redone or other.

Naturally I am far from having expertise in this field, but from the past several days of research these are opinions I have formed.

I have a friend who's a long-time antique dealer and expert who I've been conversing with at length about this shashka, I've provided every picture I could possibly summon to him and he is certain it's ivory. He believes its mammoth simply due to the availability of the material during the time this was potentially made. If it is narwhal that would lend to the theory it was refitted potentially in Russia itself as narwal marine ivory would've been rarer and more expensive. I've never handled any other ivory before, but it sure does feel buttery smooth in the hand. I think I can close the door on that theory.

Using a 20x lense I've taken a look at the carvings of the fittings, there is zero evidence of any dremmel or power tool being used here. That of course does not guarantee it is not of modern make, but it continues to add the extreme care that someone put into making this sword whether it is modern or not.

The blade stamp looks exactly the same as the one produced in that Russian PDF, while I studied Russian in college its been more than ten years and I could never read at a technical level anyway, I translated the pages surrounding the diagram but found nothing to indicate where the FB group owner was generating his analysis that the stamp was common in Western Georgia. The blade is still period sharp, probably the sharpest of any of my antiques. Someone took a significant piece out of it at some point swinging it against something hard.

The 84 stamps I'm not entirely sure about, if the work were done in Russia it would have a stamp next to the 84 indicated who the silversmith was, given 84 is .875 pure silver on the Russian zolotniki scale, I think I should be able to determine whether or not it is genuine silver after some time. I have a number of other pieces with solid silver fittings and they patina rather quickly, especially when touched. I've owned this sword for 6 months now, and I've seen no signs of aging after handling so I'm highly skeptical about the purity of the silver.

I appreciate the well-thought-out response and research, this has surely been the most interesting blade that I've owned. I've been pressed to do a write-up on my findings for this blade for quite some time now, and as I am currently on paternity leave I have a goal of finishing the write-up next week of my findings for this beautiful sword.

I'm of like mind that I believe this sword is likely a composite assembled probably late 19th century, with an older blade. The leather has likely been redone in the 20th possibly 21st century. I found it amusing that one of the shashka "experts" in the FB group immediately went to "fake!" then later admitted the Georgians did fashion a small number of swords like this one in that time period but there was "No way" that this was one of those swords, more likely that I was able to attain it. I will add again, I grabbed it at auction in the presence of another 20 legitimate high-quality niello shashka's and other trooper shashka's. I had the chance to nab one of those but this one seemed so out of the ordinary I went for it.

Cheers

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by JT88

I have a friend who's a long-time antique dealer and expert who I've been conversing with at length about this shashka, I've provided every picture I could possibly summon to him and he is certain it's ivory. He believes its mammoth simply due to the availability of the material during the time this was potentially made. If it is narwhal that would lend to the theory it was refitted potentially in Russia itself as narwal marine ivory would've been rarer and more expensive. I've never handled any other ivory before, but it sure does feel buttery smooth in the hand. I think I can close the door on that theory.

Using a 20x lense I've taken a look at the carvings of the fittings, there is zero evidence of any dremmel or power tool being used here. That of course does not guarantee it is not of modern make, but it continues to add the extreme care that someone put into making this sword whether it is modern or not.

The blade stamp looks exactly the same as the one produced in that Russian PDF, while I studied Russian in college its been more than ten years and I could never read at a technical level anyway, I translated the pages surrounding the diagram but found nothing to indicate where the FB group owner was generating his analysis that the stamp was common in Western Georgia. The blade is still period sharp, probably the sharpest of any of my antiques. Someone took a significant piece out of it at some point swinging it against something hard.

The 84 stamps I'm not entirely sure about, if the work were done in Russia it would have a stamp next to the 84 indicated who the silversmith was, given 84 is .875 pure silver on the Russian zolotniki scale, I think I should be able to determine whether or not it is genuine silver after some time. I have a number of other pieces with solid silver fittings and they patina rather quickly, especially when touched. I've owned this sword for 6 months now, and I've seen no signs of aging after handling so I'm highly skeptical about the purity of the silver.

I appreciate the well-thought-out response and research, this has surely been the most interesting blade that I've owned. I've been pressed to do a write-up on my findings for this blade for quite some time now, and as I am currently on paternity leave I have a goal of finishing the write-up next week of my findings for this beautiful sword.

I'm of like mind that I believe this sword is likely a composite assembled probably late 19th century, with an older blade. The leather has likely been redone in the 20th possibly 21st century. I found it amusing that one of the shashka "experts" in the FB group immediately went to "fake!" then later admitted the Georgians did fashion a small number of swords like this one in that time period but there was "No way" that this was one of those swords, more likely that I was able to attain it. I will add again, I grabbed it at auction in the presence of another 20 legitimate high-quality niello shashka's and other trooper shashka's. I had the chance to nab one of those but this one seemed so out of the ordinary I went for it.

Cheers

I think I'm the same, or I was in my collecting days (long ago, retirement is not conducive monetarily to such expenses). I was always attracted to the anomaly and that proved very intriguing as years went by and I found more evidence on the items I acquired.
Many swords with silver mounts I have had do not tarnish etc. unless a very long period, or any discoloration is very subtle, just dulling. They always say the magnet test will tell. With ivory they say red hot pin will turn it black .

I think this is narwhal because of the remarkable whiteness.

Not sure what they mean about stamps common in Georgia. As I noted, this running wolf is upright along with the letters, where on German blades the wolf is upside down.
On that Clauberg blade I mentioned from first half 19th c. (Rivkin, op.cit. fig.135, p.232) the ricasso is marked to the maker.......the blade is used in a shashka 1870-90, the running wolf, MH letters and 'bees' are crudely scribed in with all in same configuration as yours.
Again, Daghestan started producing European style blades after 1840s, which is why your blade may fall into that category. ...with resemblance to the M1881 without ricasso.

BTW, you're on paternity leave ? Congratulations on the little one!

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think I'm the same, or I was in my collecting days (long ago, retirement is not conducive monetarily to such expenses). I was always attracted to the anomaly and that proved very intriguing as years went by and I found more evidence on the items I acquired.
Many swords with silver mounts I have had do not tarnish etc. unless a very long period, or any discoloration is very subtle, just dulling. They always say the magnet test will tell. With ivory they say red hot pin will turn it black .

I think this is narwhal because of the remarkable whiteness.

Not sure what they mean about stamps common in Georgia. As I noted, this running wolf is upright along with the letters, where on German blades the wolf is upside down.
On that Clauberg blade I mentioned from first half 19th c. (Rivkin, op.cit. fig.135, p.232) the ricasso is marked to the maker.......the blade is used in a shashka 1870-90, the running wolf, MH letters and 'bees' are crudely scribed in with all in same configuration as yours.
Again, Daghestan started producing European style blades after 1840s, which is why your blade may fall into that category. ...with resemblance to the M1881 without ricasso.

BTW, you're on paternity leave ? Congratulations on the little one!

Brilliant, the magnet test! I had not thought of that for some reason. Here I was considering how I could shave off a piece to test. The fittings do not attract the magnet I have in the slightest, and it is an extremely powerful magnet I have to try. The 84 does actually appears in line with Rivkin in the diagram on page 63, this is explained on the next page that Egor Blumberg was the official essayer for silver objects in Tbilisi until 1885. One of his stamps in the diagram is the plain 84, though mine are not perfect rectangles...

I may try the ice test as well carefully to see. I have non-antique silver fittings on two sgian dubhs and a dirk that patina inordinately quickly. Nearly every time I handle them they seem to patina, but the vastly different quality of silver I imagine.

Yes, that Clauberg blade has the same markings and Rivkin says it is a German blade. Without a ricasso though does lend to Daghestan. I am still currently reading through Rivkin, I had bought it and simply thumbed through it before looking for evidence of "skan" craftsmanship but didn't find any.

This has made me want to find a kindjal worthy to pair to this shashka!

Yes, on paternity leave! Great chance with little sleep to research! Slowly trying to finish doing writeups about each of my blades:
https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/t...pdated-28jul21

I'd say the last piece of the puzzle would be trying to find other's with "skan" styled silver work. I cannot find any, I think if I could find at least one other with provenance it would help tell its story.

Thanks for the comment!

[fernando]

Gentlemen could you, when quoting previous posts, reduce the size of the text to the paragraphs you wish to emphasize ?
Bless you .

[Oliver Pinchot]

Gentlemen,

This is a recent example made in Tbilisi, using what appears to be an older blade with the wolf mark likewise recently applied. I have seen them offered in profusion at flea markets and roadside markets.

[Interested Party]

Gentlemen, what a fascinating discussion. Thanks for the skan reference. I love having better descriptive words, I would have used filigree before. Circassian? I'm not sure? Georgian in a Circassian style, though with the skan I don't know if I would even say that. The motifs that aren't skan seem too non-abstractly floral and make me think eastern Caucasus .There is also a chape present, though without a drag, which older Circassian sheaths did not normally have. On the original sheath galloon would have been a Circassian tell. JT, have you been able to inspect the wood in the sheath in any way to see if it is original? On the subject of a block ricasso, could the blade be shortened? How long is it? All in all I would say Russian or made for a Russian considering the essay marks or lack there of. I have read something concerning the neillo motif on the throat stating that this was favored by Russians, but I can't find the reference. Jim has an argument for pre 1896, but my gut says early 20th century Dagestani fittings with an older blade. I would love for some of our Russian friends to weigh in on this subject.

Now that I am done throwing out unfounded assertions. Three things popped into my head while reading this thread.

1) Jim in #6 the "watercolor" diagrams show the mountings that carry the blade edge up, but the 1877 does not carry vertically, over all they seem in a 19th century Caucasian style shaska configuration. Was this standard for Russian cavalry at the time, or just specialized for units in the Caucasus region, or simply artistic license? While a vertical carry was said to be good for moving on foot through brush and had obvious edge retention advantages it would seem to a bit of an awkward draw for a guarded saber.

2) Not all silvers tarnish equally. Depending on what the silver is alloyed with, often copper, effects how much the silver tarnishes and how quickly. Apparently humidity and exposure to sulfur have a large role in the chemical reaction as well.

3) I found this sight useful while having internal debates on which ivory I am looking at. https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Gentlemen could you, when quoting previous posts, reduce the size of the text to the paragraphs you wish to emphasize ?
Bless you .

Understood Fernando