Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark

[Victrix]

That’s a stunning katzbalger sword! Very Germanic looking. No doubt it once belonged to someone of great importance.

The orb is a Globus cruciger, a Christian symbol of authority since the Middle Ages. The double cross is a patriarchal cross (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross_variants), also called an Archbishop cross. German Erzstift ruled by elect Prince-Archbishops were: Cologne, Mainz, Trier, Bremen, Magdeburg, and Salzburg.

I found a similar trident mark in Zygmunt S. Lenkiewicz, 1000 Marks of European Blademakers (1991), but his identifications seem a bit hit and miss. The bibliography reference is to Gyngel’s Armourers Marks.

There is a double cross orb symbol ascribed to a Solingen smith in both Kinman and Lenkiewicz above, but the orb looks different.

[Jim McDougall]

Thats an excellent catch Victrix!!!
The one character is pretty much a perfect match.
As you well note, Lenciewicz's attributions are sketchy in many cases, and like Gyngell, these are simply compendiums of markings drawn mostly from varied museum examples and often material from private collection items published.

As such, in many, if not most, cases, these attributions are clearly presumed based on context or hopefully some sort of substantiated provenance.

With this instance, as Lenciewicz shows (as from Gyngell), 15th century, Italy.
The circumstances here we can only speculate. As I noted, these types of devices were often the same kinds of sigil like forms which were used widely in Switzerland and S. Germany in the 16th century.
However, given the traffic in arms and blades between these regions and North Italy in these times (as early of course as 15th c) it would be hard to place any one of these marks specifically to region, let alone period and emphatically not to any one maker.

[df1967]

Thanks gentleman for your valid answer to my question, highly appreciated! I have not thought to find this smith Mark anywhere as iam looking for it since a long time! Does the book says on which blade this mark was on?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by df1967

Thanks gentleman for your valid answer to my question, highly appreciated! I have not thought to find this smith Mark anywhere as iam looking for it since a long time! Does the book says on which blade this mark was on?

The book just states Italia. So the mark appears on a sword believed to be Italian. Obviously this sword can be fitted with a German blade. I would have thought this katzbalger has a Passau blade, but the double cross on the orb indicates an Archbishopric/diocese. Lenciewicz’s book shows a mark (see below) with a doublecross from Solingen, but the orb looks different from yours, but could still be Solingen. So how common are latten marks on Solingen blades? And are there orbs with a doublecrosses on any Passau blades?

[Jim McDougall]

These references are simply compendiums of marks drawn from various sources whether museum holdings, private collections or published material including markings seen on the subject weapons.
In most cases, these are presumed from the context in which they are found, which as we know can be notably compromised, such as the case with museums in some circumstances. As always, errors are always possible with anyone, but the possibilities must be recognized.

While in most cases museums strive for accuracy and reliable notations, but no amount of effort can prevent inevitable errors. In many cases weapons that are donated or presented come as part of collected examples which may have been comingled with groups from other sources from those in which they are included.

There was considerable traffic of blades between Italy, Germany and Spain which meant that a blade found on an Italian hilt, might well have been from Germany but its context presumed it to be Italian.

In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967) for example, there is a large plate of examples of the 'Passau running wolf' which shows many variations of this stylized mark, each with a date/year.
This illustration suggests some sort of chronological development of the well known marking, which of course is patently incorrect.

These marks were applied on blades as a kind of quality imbuement which evolved from a probably somewhat talismanic representation, and the character of the applications depended on the workmen placing them.

The use of 'latten' (inlaid gold metal usually brass) was notably used by many shops in Solingen just as it had been in other centers such as Passau and others in these early centuries. Inlaid metal markings had been well known since Viking times and much earlier.
Sword blades being exported to England even in the 17th century still used latten 'wolf' marks in many cases.
As always, it was a matter of preference by shops or workers producing the blades rather than consistent practice.

The cross and orb was of course not a makers mark, but a kind of religious device which may have had significance ecclesiastically (as Victrix has noted) or perhaps even the kind of quality suggested by the endorsement of the Church, as had been practiced since medieval times with swords and chivalry. In the case of the example Victrix posted, there have been initials or a mark enclosed in the orb, and these can often indeed be attributed to a particular maker or shop.

I would note that in Spain and later Solingen, the 'anchor' was used as a device in similar manner, typically placed at the terminus of a fuller and part of the phrases etc. placed in the fuller or at blade center. These 'anchors' often had somewhat complex cross bars in varying number, and with serif type additions, which seem as if 'customized' by makers or inscribers using them. With symbolic convention, it is hard to say how much 'meaning' or significance all of this had, but tempting to consider possibilities.

[Victrix]

The orb with a single cross was also used as a symbol for the Holy Roman Empire, which sometimes was at odds with the Vatican for temporal power. Not sure whether the single cross orbs sometimes seen on Passau swords is a Reichsapple or Bishopric orb. There is a katzbalger with similar shape in the Castel St Angelo in Rome which was excavated from the moat. It was believed to have been used by Imperial troops in a siege, if I remember correctly, but I believe the Vatican also employed Landesknechts as mercenaries. I was struck by the impressive size of this sword (see below).

[df1967]

Thanks for this pic, never saw this katzbalger. Typical German shape of around 1520, Schellenberg type as shown in the museum in Vienna. The Swiss katzbalger of the reisläufer had often a more open 8 as the hand protection, as mentioned in a book of edged weapons of the museum in Zürich.

I guess most of the blacksmith marks are not to identify, considering the fact that over centuries every town had the own blacksmith who could at least to basic halberds for example, and as it is today every smith had his own mark. Only the best once we could identify today I believe…

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

The orb is a Globus cruciger, a Christian symbol of authority since the Middle Ages. .

Do you mean crucifer instead, from fero/ferre "to carry", so as to mean a cross-bearing globe?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Philip

Do you mean crucifer instead, from fero/ferre "to carry", so as to mean a cross-bearing globe?

http://www.1066.co.nz/Mosaic%20DVD/s...20cruciger.htm

[df1967]

Some more marks of my collection

[df1967]

Some more marks of my collection

[Interested Party]

One bit of data following up on post #7's theme. The "M" at the bottom of post #10's mark is a religious symbol as well. I read this in one of my grandfather's books on wood carving about 25 year's ago so take this tidbit for what it is worth.

The book (I can't remember the name of the book or the author offhand, but I think I moved the book to my Dad's after my grandfather's death. So there is a chance I will be able to site this source at a later date.) had a section on the Madonna and her representations in folk art styles. This type of "M" was said to stand for Mary but also had a older context in relation to mountains in the pagan sense as objects of veneration in their own right. I believe it was attributed to a Swiss origin (I'm not saying the mark itself is Swiss). I have always been fascinated with the layering of belief systems and artistic allusion's so the chapter made a deep impression on me. Whether the smaller peak could be considered a "child" I have always wondered.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

One bit of data following up on post #7's theme. The "M" at the bottom of post #10's mark is a religious symbol as well. I read this in one of my grandfather's books on wood carving about 25 year's ago so take this tidbit for what it is worth.

The book (I can't remember the name of the book or the author offhand, but I think I moved the book to my Dad's after my grandfather's death. So there is a chance I will be able to site this source at a later date.) had a section on the Madonna and her representations in folk art styles. This type of "M" was said to stand for Mary but also had a older context in relation to mountains in the pagan sense as objects of veneration in their own right. I believe it was attributed to a Swiss origin (I'm not saying the mark itself is Swiss). I have always been fascinated with the layering of belief systems and artistic allusion's so the chapter made a deep impression on me. Whether the smaller peak could be considered a "child" I have always wondered.

Very interesting observations which seem plausible. I saw it as an upside down W but it makes more sense as a M. This letter must have had some significance since one might otherwise assume that the maker would use his initials B A in the symbol. To use the letter M for Maria in a Roman Catholic ecclesiastical symbol makes sense. I believe these symbols are far from random as people spent a lot of effort to put them there. We just need to re-learn their interpretation.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

One bit of data following up on post #7's theme. The "M" at the bottom of post #10's mark is a religious symbol as well. I read this in one of my grandfather's books on wood carving about 25 year's ago so take this tidbit for what it is worth.

The book (I can't remember the name of the book or the author offhand, but I think I moved the book to my Dad's after my grandfather's death. So there is a chance I will be able to site this source at a later date.) had a section on the Madonna and her representations in folk art styles. This type of "M" was said to stand for Mary but also had a older context in relation to mountains in the pagan sense as objects of veneration in their own right. I believe it was attributed to a Swiss origin (I'm not saying the mark itself is Swiss). I have always been fascinated with the layering of belief systems and artistic allusion's so the chapter made a deep impression on me. Whether the smaller peak could be considered a "child" I have always wondered.

This is a wonderful and fascinating entry !!! Thank you!
What you refer to is known as the 'Black Madonna' (due to the blackened figure) and was the object of much venerated following as a relic during these times and these regions. I have a book on this but as you, I need to retrieve it.
The irregular joining of the 'V's to me suggests perhaps depiction of mountains as you mention, and these were figured into much symbolism it seems in varying allegorical sense.
This is an outstanding theme to pursue in learning more on these cross and orb markings.