Hunting sword ... for comments

M ELEY · 14th June 2021, 12:36 AM

Great information on those opposing dog head finials, Jim! I always wondered if they had a name. 'Talbots'...very interesting! In themselves, they also IMHO lend to an earlier (pre-19th) dating. My 1660's Dutch hanger has them as well. I like your hanger as well, Jim. Besides, of course, being used by the gentry for hunting as well as infantry/army, the plain hangers were also popular at sea for their simplicity, brass fixtures (those that possessed them, that is) and relatively short blades.

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2021, 03:09 AM

Thank you Capn!
I finally dragged out my Bashford Dean (1928), and I think Marius is right on the hanger in the OP.
Notes also from "Edged Weapons" , Frederick Wilkinson, 1970, p.94,
"...another type of sword was in favor at this time (2nd quarter 17th c) had a simpler hilt which comprised a cross quillon, usually straight with slight curves at the ends, but NO knucklebow at all. "

I have noted that most hunting swords, especially English, seem to have had knucklebows.

The flared out pommel seems to be French or German, and as I earlier notes the 'buttons' (medallions) in triple (or often 5), seem also to be French or German.

fernando · 21st June 2021, 11:06 AM

Sorry to bring this up again, guys.
Alright with the 18th century assessment but, the origin being French or German, you say ?
Isn't it also a German (hirshfanger) fashion to have a scallop shell guard ?

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2021, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Sorry to bring this up again, guys.
Alright with the 18th century assessment but, the origin being French or German, you say ?
Isn't it also a German (hirshfanger) fashion to have a scallop shell guard ?

In my view, many forms of swords in the European sphere end up being classed as 'Continental' as there was so much diffusion in influence as well as the cutlers/artisans themselves.
When it comes to France and Germany, these countries were then largely principalities, kingdoms and states (not wishing to delve into differences of these terms)so it would be hard to define French vs. German.

However the German 'hirschfanger' and the French 'cuttoe de chasse' were basically similar, and most seem to have had the downturned shell from the crossguard. As always, there are no hard and fast rules so of course there were exceptions and variations.

This downturned shell became notable not only on these hunting swords but on court swords as well (as Dean, 1928 shows). It would seem that these shells, rather than having a combative purpose naturally, offered a larger field of surface for the ornamentation typically afforded these weapons.

France and Germany often had great commonality in many things, and the great blade center in Klingenthal had a large component of smiths from Solingen. Alsace-Lorraine has been either French or German so often over time that both languages are spoken as are the shared cultural characters.

fernando · 21st June 2021, 05:24 PM

Duly noted, Jim.

fernando · 23rd June 2021, 01:27 PM

Not precisely referrng to this (my) specific example, but i like the following abstract by Gerhard Grosse Loescher ...

The hirschfanger was the main weapon for the royal hunt and for foresters. In the electorate Hanover George III. introduced two models of hirschfanger by royal decree. High-ranking hunting or forestry officials were provided with a hirschfanger with white ivory grip and prominent crossguard without clamshell (ill. 1). Lower ranking officials were prescribed a hirschfanger with wire-wrapped staghorn grip and crossguard with curved quillons (ill. 2). An unusual feature of both models is the collar on the quillon block which fits over the throat of the scabbard and is supposed to protect the blade from moisture. Both models remained the service hirschfangers to be worn with uniform until the abolition of the kingdom of Hanover in 1866. For full dress, the weapon was suspended from an embroidered hanger, for normal service it was attached to a fixture on the black leather waist belt (Leibkoppel). In the middle of the 19(th) century both models became smaller and more delicate. Apart from the regulation hirschfanger model, so-called 'couteaux de chasse' were also carried during service. These were short, knife-like sidearms incorporating elements from the hilt of the hirschfanger. The heraldic depictions on the blade: royal crown and Saxon horse running on pasture above the wolfsangel, support its attribution to Hanover. 'Couteaux' were recorded in connection with the Hanoverian royal hunt in 1855. The head of the administration of the Hanoverian forest, Heinrich Burckhardt, used the term 'couteau' and it can be assumed that apart from the official hirschfanger models, knife-like sidearms were used for hunting and forestry. Their design was not regulated but their hilt often incorporated elements of the official models (quillon, pommel, scabbard mounts etc.).

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2021, 01:46 PM

Outstanding research and well placed insight regarding these hunting hangers! Thank you Fernando. It is great to have these kinds of data placed in threads like this where a form is focused upon, and key information is compiled for future research. Most information on these 'hunting' weapons is pretty much cursory as far as styles and decoration, so invaluable material like this is so important.

14th June 2021, 12:36 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Great information on those opposing dog head finials, Jim! I always wondered if they had a name. 'Talbots'...very interesting! In themselves, they also IMHO lend to an earlier (pre-19th) dating. My 1660's Dutch hanger has them as well. I like your hanger as well, Jim. Besides, of course, being used by the gentry for hunting as well as infantry/army, the plain hangers were also popular at sea for their simplicity, brass fixtures (those that possessed them, that is) and relatively short blades.

14th June 2021, 03:09 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Thank you Capn! I finally dragged out my Bashford Dean (1928), and I think Marius is right on the hanger in the OP. Notes also from "Edged Weapons" , Frederick Wilkinson, 1970, p.94, "...another type of sword was in favor at this time (2nd quarter 17th c) had a simpler hilt which comprised a cross quillon, usually straight with slight curves at the ends, but NO knucklebow at all. " I have noted that most hunting swords, especially English, seem to have had knucklebows. The flared out pommel seems to be French or German, and as I earlier notes the 'buttons' (medallions) in triple (or often 5), seem also to be French or German.

21st June 2021, 11:06 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry to bring this up again, guys. Alright with the 18th century assessment but, the origin being French or German, you say ? Isn't it also a German (hirshfanger) fashion to have a scallop shell guard ?

21st June 2021, 05:24 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Duly noted, Jim.

23rd June 2021, 01:27 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Not precisely referrng to this (my) specific example, but i like the following abstract by Gerhard Grosse Loescher ... The hirschfanger was the main weapon for the royal hunt and for foresters. In the electorate Hanover George III. introduced two models of hirschfanger by royal decree. High-ranking hunting or forestry officials were provided with a hirschfanger with white ivory grip and prominent crossguard without clamshell (ill. 1). Lower ranking officials were prescribed a hirschfanger with wire-wrapped staghorn grip and crossguard with curved quillons (ill. 2). An unusual feature of both models is the collar on the quillon block which fits over the throat of the scabbard and is supposed to protect the blade from moisture. Both models remained the service hirschfangers to be worn with uniform until the abolition of the kingdom of Hanover in 1866. For full dress, the weapon was suspended from an embroidered hanger, for normal service it was attached to a fixture on the black leather waist belt (Leibkoppel). In the middle of the 19(th) century both models became smaller and more delicate. Apart from the regulation hirschfanger model, so-called 'couteaux de chasse' were also carried during service. These were short, knife-like sidearms incorporating elements from the hilt of the hirschfanger. The heraldic depictions on the blade: royal crown and Saxon horse running on pasture above the wolfsangel, support its attribution to Hanover. 'Couteaux' were recorded in connection with the Hanoverian royal hunt in 1855. The head of the administration of the Hanoverian forest, Heinrich Burckhardt, used the term 'couteau' and it can be assumed that apart from the official hirschfanger models, knife-like sidearms were used for hunting and forestry. Their design was not regulated but their hilt often incorporated elements of the official models (quillon, pommel, scabbard mounts etc.).

23rd June 2021, 01:46 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Outstanding research and well placed insight regarding these hunting hangers! Thank you Fernando. It is great to have these kinds of data placed in threads like this where a form is focused upon, and key information is compiled for future research. Most information on these 'hunting' weapons is pretty much cursory as far as styles and decoration, so invaluable material like this is so important.