A curious Japanese? sword

[Bryce]

G'day Norman,
It is a sword which was made in an Asian country other than Japan, in imitation of a Japanese sword. Whether it was made 10 years ago or 80 years ago is hard to judge from the photos. It is possible that the blade was Japanese, but has had a very hard life and was shortened by a non Japanese craftsman some time ago. The file marks on the nakago actually look like grind marks to me, where the nakago has been ground flat? Hard to tell from the photos. The non-aligning hamachi and munemachi (notches) is a classic Chinese trait.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Bryce]

G'day Norman,
A Japanese sword which has had this hard a life will have grain openings in the blade, which are evidence of folding during manufacture. If there aren't any openings on your blade than I think we can rule out any chance that the blade is an old Japanese one.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Norman,
A Japanese sword which has had this hard a life will have grain openings in the blade, which are evidence of folding during manufacture. If there aren't any openings on your blade than I think we can rule out any chance that the blade is an old Japanese one.
Cheers,
Bryce

Hi Bryce,
There are distinct signs of opening along the edge of the blade. I hope the photo attached is good enough for you to see what I mean.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. There are some along the spine as well, again I hope the photo is sufficient.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Norman,
The non-aligning hamachi and munemachi (notches) is a classic Chinese trait.
Cheers,
Bryce

In a Chinese context, the notches, or shoulders, aren't supposed to align. On the contrary, they are ideally quite far apart because the sleeve at the base of the blade (tunkou) takes an asymmetric form and in fact is totally unrelated to the Japanese habaki. Here is a typical Chinese example from a saber dating to the late 17th or first half 18th;

On a related note: it may be worth noting also that as this pic shows, the typical method of fastening hilt to blade on most Chinese sabers and swords is via a tang that emerges at the pommel where it is peened over. It is identical in concept to the method typically found in Europe from the Middle Ages onward. And practically unique in East Asia, where besides Tibet and Bhutan, the norm is to use a blind tang and cross pin(s) as in Japan and Korea, or a blind tang anchored by adhesives as is the case of India, mainland SE Asia, and the Malay Archipelago.

[Philip]

To further show the disconnect between tunkou and habaki, here are earlier examples demonstrating that the Chinese version is of Inner Asian origin. The left image is of a Khazar saber, 9th-11th cent. AD, of a form encountered in a wide expanse of western Asia and eastern Europe. The right one is from a Seljuk saber blade, 11th-12th cent., found in Iran. The feature lived on stylistically (chiseled into the blade, not a separate sleeve) into Mamlûk times (15th cent. Egypt). The tunkou does not appear on Chinese sabers until the end of the 16th cent. at earliest and started to fade from popularity in the 19th.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Philip

To further show the disconnect between tunkou and habaki, here are earlier examples demonstrating that the Chinese version is of Inner Asian origin. The left image is of a Khazar saber, 9th-11th cent. AD, of a form encountered in a wide expanse of western Asia and eastern Europe. The right one is from a Seljuk saber blade, 11th-12th cent., found in Iran. The feature lived on stylistically (chiseled into the blade, not a separate sleeve) into Mamlûk times (15th cent. Egypt). The tunkou does not appear on Chinese sabers until the end of the 16th cent. at earliest and started to fade from popularity in the 19th.

on the chinese sword with rat tail tangs the blade collar is a vestigial decoration. comming from the mongol and turkic nomads swords... the Middle Easterners disguarded the collar as the swords became more and more curved withthe appearence of firearms and decline of heavy armor.
the functions of tuese swords blade collars for mounted nomads was probably to improve sheath retention and i suspect by the long blades.. some found are over 120cm blades.. . narrow guards and canted grips. that they were grasping around the guard in their mounted thrusts... (some blades have even reinforced tips for gamberson and mail peircing) if i was a guessing man it may well be where europeans even gone t the idea to grasp the ricasso with the index finger. i cant find any artworks of the time showing nomads doing this and you dont need the blade collar to do it just a blunt ricasso. but then who did the pictures of those times.. it wasnt nomads.. .

on the japanese sword the blade collar has a differebt function.. the swird is shimmed and pegged togeather and a soft metal adjustable shock obsorbing metal is needed thatis wider than the blade. this collar hols the guard steady abd can be used with shims between it abd the guard to make the fit tighter.. it also can hold the blade in the sheath but for a different reason.. to avoide sheath contact with the blade.. to protect the polish.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

it may well be where europeans even gone t the idea to grasp the ricasso with the index finger.

That was the case with the talwar used by the Mughals. As you know, many of these sabers have quite small grips. Whereas the talwar was a traditional weapon in the Muslim-influenced northern part of India, and many of the people are quite large in stature. This may explain the so-called Indian ricasso, which of course is blunt but also tends to be slightly wider than the cutting area of the blade. Holding a talwar with the index finger over this ricasso makes it more comfortable to hold, and stabilizes the weapon very well in the hand, allowing excellent control The potential for injury was not a problem since Indian swordsmanship calls for a buckler or a cattar in the left hand for parrying.

This manner of holding the talwar is often depicted in Mughal battle scenes.