A curious Japanese? sword

mariusgmioc · 11th June 2021, 11:59 PM

I don't believe this is a Japanese sword.
The shape and tip of the nakago, the not perfectly straight filing marks, as well as the rust covering them are giveaways.
However, I am not very knowledgeable about Japanese swords and would advise you to post it on Nihonto Message Board forum.

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/

Bryce · 12th June 2021, 01:55 AM

G'day Norman,
Unfortunately this isn't Japanese and is probably a Chinese fake. Nothing about the tsuka (handle) is Japanese, the tsuba is crudely cast, the nakago is very crudely finished, blade geometry all wrong and the notches where the habaki fits don't line up. I don't know anything about Korean swords, but most likely a Chinese wall hanger.
Cheers,
Bryce

Norman McCormick · 12th June 2021, 12:46 PM

Hi Marius and Bryce.
Thanks for your continued interest. Bryce I'm afraid I have to disagree with the Chinese wall hanger attribution. Although the fittings are obviously cruder than normal Japanese ones the blade is not wall hanger junk. It may not be up to Japanese standards but in hand it is definitely not of the 'katana will cut steel' variety. To me the habaki seems to fit o.k. maybe you could elaborate on the misalignment a bit. The scabbard furniture is a bit of a riddle but appears to conform more to the Korean setup. At the moment I am pursuing the Korean and non Japan idea. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 12th June 2021, 02:31 PM

Hi,
This may be of interest.

Do, commonly referred to as a Hwando or "military sword," was a single-edged sword, used as a sidearm for the Korean soldier well into the 19th century. Sometimes referred to as a "short sword," relative to the larger sized two-handed Sangsoodo, its length of 24 to 34 inches was comparable to that of the two-handed Japanese Katana which may have been the inspiration for the Ssangsoodo. Reports found in the "Book of Corrections," a Korean record of the Imjin Warum (1592–1598), state that Japanese swords taken in combat were readily pressed into service by simply trimming the length of the hilt. Forged of carbon steel the Do has a single-edged, curved blade, a sword guard, and a grip typically of wood. Earlier practice saw the Do suspended from a cord (Jul) and with a simple metal hanger which allowed the soldier to speedily discard his sheath. In later practice, the sword was suspended from a girdle or belt but retained a simple metal quick-release clip.[12]

Regards,
Norman.

mariusgmioc · 12th June 2021, 02:32 PM

Regarding the misalignment of the notches, just have a look at the photo.
In Japanese swords they are perfectly aligned.

Norman McCormick · 12th June 2021, 02:41 PM

Hi Marius,
I see what you mean. The 'habaki' on this blade has been manufactured
to take account of this difference.
My Regards,
Norman.

David R · 12th June 2021, 07:13 PM

I had this one down as an "Island Sword" dating from WW2 with a repurposed genuine Japanese blade. The yokote is notorious for disappearing with a bad or worn polish, and not all blade styles had one.

The idea of it being a Korean Geom or Yedo had not occurred to me, though they do often have a passing resemblance to Katana.

Island sword is a bit of a catchall term for WW2 katana of dubious origin. Legitimately made and carried by Indonesian collaborator troops, and independence fighters. P.E.T.A.

Ren Ren · 12th June 2021, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Island sword is a bit of a catchall term for WW2 katana of dubious origin. Legitimately made and carried by Indonesian collaborator troops, and independence fighters. P.E.T.A.

I totally agree with you, David! Once I saw such a sword and they told me exactly the same thing about it. I can see the skin of a snake or a lizard on the hilt, but not a stingray in the Japanese tradition. For me, this is the sign of the Island sword.

ariel · 13th June 2021, 05:31 AM

I do not know much about Korean sword; thus, I have to rely fully on the chapter by Park Je Gwang, a curator of the War Memorial of Korea. This was published in a book titled "History of steel in Eastern Asia", a catalogue of the Macao exhibition. Two of our colleagues, Ian and Jose ( Battara) coauthored a chapter on Sandata, Philippines bladed weapons.

Back to the Korean swords. The main cultural difference between them and the Japanese swords was a very different attitude. The was nothing of a " Sword is the soul of the samurai". Swords were just implements, no more. The main physical difference was the attachment of the handle to the tang: in Japan the mekugi was easily removable, in Korea they had a true rivet, that prevented any disassembly.

Look at yours and see which method was used in your sword.

Norman McCormick · 13th June 2021, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I do not know much about Korean sword; thus, I have to rely fully on the chapter by Park Je Gwang, a curator of the War Memorial of Korea. This was published in a book titled "History of steel in Eastern Asia", a catalogue of the Macao exhibition. Two of our colleagues, Ian and Jose ( Battara) coauthored a chapter on Sandata, Philippines bladed weapons.

Back to the Korean swords. The main cultural difference between them and the Japanese swords was a very different attitude. The was nothing of a " Sword is the soul of the samurai". Swords were just implements, no more. The main physical difference was the attachment of the handle to the tang: in Japan the mekugi was easily removable, in Korea they had a true rivet, that prevented any disassembly.

Look at yours and see which method was used in your sword.

Hi Ariel,
The hilt is secured by a peg and not a rivet so I guess from your research that rules out a Korean attribution.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 13th June 2021, 04:03 PM

David and Ren Ren,
A valid point.
My Regards,
Norman.

David R · 13th June 2021, 04:41 PM

I suspect that the reason for the offset "machi" is to get the look of the traditional habaki, which is a more complicated piece of work than people realise, without all the fiddling around.....
I have made a couple of habaki, and there is a lot of fiddling around.

Norman McCormick · 13th June 2021, 04:45 PM

Hi,
A Korean sword with a pegged hilt also just discernible is an 'offset habaki'.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 18th June 2021, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I do not know much about Korean sword; thus, I have to rely fully on the chapter by Park Je Gwang, a curator of the War Memorial of Korea. This was published in a book titled "History of steel in Eastern Asia", a catalogue of the Macao exhibition. The main physical difference was the attachment of the handle to the tang: in Japan the mekugi was easily removable, in Korea they had a true rivet, that prevented any disassembly.

Hi,
Also from the above publication.

'Another method used a cooper pin like the Mekugi just above the sword guard, and a tube inserted into a hole in the handle, to which a tassel was attached.'

This could possibly account for the two holes in the tang of my blade as it is reasonably evident the blade is not original to the current mounts. I presume the 'cooper pin' is a typo and is intended to be a copper pin.
Regards,
Norman.

12th June 2021, 12:46 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Marius and Bryce. Thanks for your continued interest. Bryce I'm afraid I have to disagree with the Chinese wall hanger attribution. Although the fittings are obviously cruder than normal Japanese ones the blade is not wall hanger junk. It may not be up to Japanese standards but in hand it is definitely not of the 'katana will cut steel' variety. To me the habaki seems to fit o.k. maybe you could elaborate on the misalignment a bit. The scabbard furniture is a bit of a riddle but appears to conform more to the Korean setup. At the moment I am pursuing the Korean and non Japan idea. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

12th June 2021, 02:32 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Regarding the misalignment of the notches, just have a look at the photo. In Japanese swords they are perfectly aligned. Attached Images

12th June 2021, 02:41 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Marius, I see what you mean. The 'habaki' on this blade has been manufactured to take account of this difference. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

12th June 2021, 07:13 PM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	I had this one down as an "Island Sword" dating from WW2 with a repurposed genuine Japanese blade. The yokote is notorious for disappearing with a bad or worn polish, and not all blade styles had one. The idea of it being a Korean Geom or Yedo had not occurred to me, though they do often have a passing resemblance to Katana. Island sword is a bit of a catchall term for WW2 katana of dubious origin. Legitimately made and carried by Indonesian collaborator troops, and independence fighters. P.E.T.A. Attached Images

13th June 2021, 04:41 PM	#12
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	I suspect that the reason for the offset "machi" is to get the look of the traditional habaki, which is a more complicated piece of work than people realise, without all the fiddling around..... I have made a couple of habaki, and there is a lot of fiddling around. Attached Images

11th June 2021, 11:59 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	I don't believe this is a Japanese sword. The shape and tip of the nakago, the not perfectly straight filing marks, as well as the rust covering them are giveaways. However, I am not very knowledgeable about Japanese swords and would advise you to post it on Nihonto Message Board forum. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/

12th June 2021, 01:55 AM	#2
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	G'day Norman, Unfortunately this isn't Japanese and is probably a Chinese fake. Nothing about the tsuka (handle) is Japanese, the tsuba is crudely cast, the nakago is very crudely finished, blade geometry all wrong and the notches where the habaki fits don't line up. I don't know anything about Korean swords, but most likely a Chinese wall hanger. Cheers, Bryce

12th June 2021, 02:31 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, This may be of interest. Do, commonly referred to as a Hwando or "military sword," was a single-edged sword, used as a sidearm for the Korean soldier well into the 19th century. Sometimes referred to as a "short sword," relative to the larger sized two-handed Sangsoodo, its length of 24 to 34 inches was comparable to that of the two-handed Japanese Katana which may have been the inspiration for the Ssangsoodo. Reports found in the "Book of Corrections," a Korean record of the Imjin Warum (1592–1598), state that Japanese swords taken in combat were readily pressed into service by simply trimming the length of the hilt. Forged of carbon steel the Do has a single-edged, curved blade, a sword guard, and a grip typically of wood. Earlier practice saw the Do suspended from a cord (Jul) and with a simple metal hanger which allowed the soldier to speedily discard his sheath. In later practice, the sword was suspended from a girdle or belt but retained a simple metal quick-release clip.[12] Regards, Norman.

13th June 2021, 05:31 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not know much about Korean sword; thus, I have to rely fully on the chapter by Park Je Gwang, a curator of the War Memorial of Korea. This was published in a book titled "History of steel in Eastern Asia", a catalogue of the Macao exhibition. Two of our colleagues, Ian and Jose ( Battara) coauthored a chapter on Sandata, Philippines bladed weapons. Back to the Korean swords. The main cultural difference between them and the Japanese swords was a very different attitude. The was nothing of a " Sword is the soul of the samurai". Swords were just implements, no more. The main physical difference was the attachment of the handle to the tang: in Japan the mekugi was easily removable, in Korea they had a true rivet, that prevented any disassembly. Look at yours and see which method was used in your sword.

13th June 2021, 04:03 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	David and Ren Ren, A valid point. My Regards, Norman.

13th June 2021, 04:45 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, A Korean sword with a pegged hilt also just discernible is an 'offset habaki'. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images