an Afghan pulwar sword -translation if possible...

Kubur · 11th June 2021, 07:13 PM

Hi my friend

I disagree with Jim, this is not modern.
It is a very nice Afghan pulwar.
The blade is old and scabbard too (19th).
I have to admit that the hilt is a bit weird, maybe it is the reason why Jim wrote that.
I have a pulwar with the same kind of blade, but without the inscription... damnit!

One forum member is an expert and wrote a book about Afghan weapons, I have to find the book...

Kubur

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2021, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi my friend

I disagree with Jim, this is not modern.
It is a very nice Afghan pulwar.
The blade is old and scabbard too (19th).
I have to admit that the hilt is a bit weird, maybe it is the reason why Jim wrote that.
I have a pulwar with the same kind of blade, but without the inscription... damnit!

One forum member is an expert and wrote a book about Afghan weapons, I have to find the book...

Kubur

I think I best qualify what I mean, 'modern' suggests perhaps end of 19th c.
The hilt is indeed unusual with the quillons being this close in, a characteristic which in many ways reminds me of Arab sabers with these narrow quillons.
The paluoar was used into the 19th century, residually, and they became less often present, so a later made version may well have been in this unusual character. The 'eyelash' marks are not as well executed as on earlier examples where they seem invariably present.

Compare this example which I believe is possibly late 18th-early 19th c. and the differences, especially the 'sickle marks'.
These are more in line with the actual Genoan/Styrian types with the triple dots etc.
The hilt here seems notably different, but is smooth rather than the fluting and quadrangular design (which is indeed correct but absent on mine), the fluted scabbard (I do not have one) which is absolutely correct as well.

I think it is important to remember they were using these weapons in varying cases tribally into the third Afghan War (1919) and beyond. There were battles and warfare well into the 1930s. The blade on Francotolins is of the type made late 18th into 19th in Rajasthani regions and I have seen the cartouche (usually in Urdu) in that quadrant of the forte on tulwar blades.
It is the markings which seem 'modern' and the hilt seems made 'in the style of' in the manner of both tulwars and some paluoars of these northern regions. In my opinion it is an authentically made example but somewhat recomposed.

ariel · 12th June 2021, 04:43 AM

I mostly agree with Jim about the relative " newness", and I think we need to look at the separate parts.
The chape: it has a drag, which is a purely European feature, acquired by the Afghanis from the British military, late 19-early 20 century and continued later.
The blade is Indian, which is no brainer: there are scores of Afghani pulwars with imported blades. It carries Indian stamp, but no Afghani ones. It looks either pristine or grossly overcleaned. I am surprised that there is no rust/patination under the langets: these areas are the most difficult to clean. No pitting, the edge is intact. No signs of repeat sharpening. Brass inlay is very clumsy, with no losses whatsoever. The blade does not seem to go down into the scabbard all the way. Am I correct?Dry wood? But with all of the above I have a nasty feeling that the scabbard was not made for this specific blade, on the contrary the blade was chosen as best as they could for a particular scabbard. There is a stark contrast between the condition of the scabbars'd metal parts ( bumps, patination, discoloration, some losses, rotten dry wood etc) and the pristine condition of the blade.

The handles are easily available and present no difficulty to combine with a blade. Again, no patination or pitting at all. I would be most interested in the condition of the filler: full, smooth or dry, crumbly, with areas of losses? BTW, what is the material of the filler? The old way to prepare the filler was to mix lac, a little bit of wax and crudely powdered bricks or such, and those are easily made locally, and the filler doesn't hold intact forever.

Overall, I have an uncomfortable feeling that this sword is an assembly of a relatively old scabbard ( end of 19-beginning of 20 century) with much newer blade and with overcleaned (?) handle of uncertain age. Manufacture of "antique" swords is perhaps one of the main sources of foreign currency in modern Afghanistan, with the exception of opium. That part of the world is awash in spare parts for whatever weapons one's heart desires, and Indian/Pakistani/Afghani armorers are also in great supply.

My 5 cents. A disclaimer: I could be able to express a more accurate opinion had I been able to hold this sword in my hands. Dating antiques by examining pictures is a dicey proposition.

Kubur · 12th June 2021, 07:16 AM

I agree with Ariel the scabbard is late 19th c.
The blade could be Indian (it's what collectors say...)
The only forum member who could answer with precision to your question is Mahratt.
Here is the pulwar that I mentionned: you should post your sword the same manner to compare the blades.

francantolin · 12th June 2021, 09:19 AM

Hello,
Thank you for the comments,
It needed more informations about the sword:

an heavy sword weight 1080 grams
length 98cm, 103cm with scabbard

The blade fits good entirely in the scabbard ,
just the end of the the scabbard was really bad preserved as I wrote ( humidity...) I think there was a metal chape before...

the blade maybe was polished later when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ?

I think end of 19th century for this sword is right,
the indian blade, don't really know ...
Thank you Jim about the Indian Urdu cartouche

About the hilt, maybe not too old but it is really finely crafted and of higher quality than average pulwar hilts I think,
I saw a few sword with all these delicate holes/perforations, One similar sold by Czern'ys, another from Mandarin Mansion, ( thank you for the pictures !)

( Inside there are too 'small 'stones'' inside who makes rattle sound,
I read it could be Mecca stones...)

I am the overcleaner

and remove rust from everypart ( too under the langets

),
some might say I wouldn't to and perhaps it has less value like that,
but I couldn't leave it like that: cf pictures ...
we can see that the blade was already in better conditions than the rest of the sword before my ''wash'' ,
that's what surprise me first too the blade was maybe polished later
( when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ? If it's afghan... )

francantolin · 12th June 2021, 09:21 AM

the last...

Kind regards

Jim McDougall · 12th June 2021, 05:04 PM

As Ariel has noted, the 'industry' of creating representations of traditional weapons is well known in Afghanistan, particularly in Khyber and Northwest province regions, and has been since mid 19th c.

I had not noticed the 'drag' on the chape, a distinctly western affectation reflecting the move to western influences post 2nd Afghan War (1879-80).
By this time Afghanistan had become controlled by Great Britain much as in the Indian Raj, and the military was augmented by native units as well as the use of British uniform elements and weaponry.

The Khyber knife was vestigially replaced by European style hilted short sabers, though these hilts were also placed on the heirloom blades of the Khyber knives in many cases.

The inscription on this blade is likely in either Dari Persian or in Naskh if in Pashto. Unfortunately I cannot translate.

The 'mecca stones' are an unusual affectation in these (I think Ashoka had one) and these are known in pommels of late 19th c Sudanese swords, so possibly a Sufi feature?

On a personal note, my preference is to avoid overcleaning swords, primarily because I am a historian, and removing patination is to essentially remove history itself in a sense. Naturally it is important to stabilize a weapon from any active corrosion or rust, and add any minor repair to maintain the integrity of the weapon. However over cleaning and alteration typically remove the elements of the 'adventures' the weapon has gone through over time and its working life. Just my thoughts

each collector has own preferences.

ariel · 12th June 2021, 05:11 PM

If the contrast between physical conditions of the scabbard vs. blade is explained by your overeager cleaning ( note: this is my personal opinion, I prefer to keep mine with “ kisses of time”, but others might agree with you), the only issue remaining is the age of the filler: was the sword disassembled and/ or the handle is a replacement. Based on your recent pics with heavily patinated handle, I tend to think that the handle is original.
If all is fine, the issue of age will be closed: not earlier than the end of 19 century, and then all the way up to the first third of the 20 century. This one does not look like a regulation weapon ( no government marks), and a private purchase is very likely. That could have happened any time withint the above time frame.

12th June 2021, 07:16 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree with Ariel the scabbard is late 19th c. The blade could be Indian (it's what collectors say...) The only forum member who could answer with precision to your question is Mahratt. Here is the pulwar that I mentionned: you should post your sword the same manner to compare the blades. Attached Images

12th June 2021, 09:19 AM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank you for the comments, It needed more informations about the sword: an heavy sword weight 1080 grams length 98cm, 103cm with scabbard The blade fits good entirely in the scabbard , just the end of the the scabbard was really bad preserved as I wrote ( humidity...) I think there was a metal chape before... the blade maybe was polished later when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ? I think end of 19th century for this sword is right, the indian blade, don't really know ... Thank you Jim about the Indian Urdu cartouche About the hilt, maybe not too old but it is really finely crafted and of higher quality than average pulwar hilts I think, I saw a few sword with all these delicate holes/perforations, One similar sold by Czern'ys, another from Mandarin Mansion, ( thank you for the pictures !) ( Inside there are too 'small 'stones'' inside who makes rattle sound, I read it could be Mecca stones...) I am the overcleaner and remove rust from everypart ( too under the langets ), some might say I wouldn't to and perhaps it has less value like that, but I couldn't leave it like that: cf pictures ... we can see that the blade was already in better conditions than the rest of the sword before my ''wash'' , that's what surprise me first too the blade was maybe polished later ( when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ? If it's afghan... ) Attached Images

12th June 2021, 09:21 AM	#6
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	the last... Kind regards Attached Images

11th June 2021, 07:13 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi my friend I disagree with Jim, this is not modern. It is a very nice Afghan pulwar. The blade is old and scabbard too (19th). I have to admit that the hilt is a bit weird, maybe it is the reason why Jim wrote that. I have a pulwar with the same kind of blade, but without the inscription... damnit! One forum member is an expert and wrote a book about Afghan weapons, I have to find the book... Kubur

12th June 2021, 04:43 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I mostly agree with Jim about the relative " newness", and I think we need to look at the separate parts. The chape: it has a drag, which is a purely European feature, acquired by the Afghanis from the British military, late 19-early 20 century and continued later. The blade is Indian, which is no brainer: there are scores of Afghani pulwars with imported blades. It carries Indian stamp, but no Afghani ones. It looks either pristine or grossly overcleaned. I am surprised that there is no rust/patination under the langets: these areas are the most difficult to clean. No pitting, the edge is intact. No signs of repeat sharpening. Brass inlay is very clumsy, with no losses whatsoever. The blade does not seem to go down into the scabbard all the way. Am I correct?Dry wood? But with all of the above I have a nasty feeling that the scabbard was not made for this specific blade, on the contrary the blade was chosen as best as they could for a particular scabbard. There is a stark contrast between the condition of the scabbars'd metal parts ( bumps, patination, discoloration, some losses, rotten dry wood etc) and the pristine condition of the blade. The handles are easily available and present no difficulty to combine with a blade. Again, no patination or pitting at all. I would be most interested in the condition of the filler: full, smooth or dry, crumbly, with areas of losses? BTW, what is the material of the filler? The old way to prepare the filler was to mix lac, a little bit of wax and crudely powdered bricks or such, and those are easily made locally, and the filler doesn't hold intact forever. Overall, I have an uncomfortable feeling that this sword is an assembly of a relatively old scabbard ( end of 19-beginning of 20 century) with much newer blade and with overcleaned (?) handle of uncertain age. Manufacture of "antique" swords is perhaps one of the main sources of foreign currency in modern Afghanistan, with the exception of opium. That part of the world is awash in spare parts for whatever weapons one's heart desires, and Indian/Pakistani/Afghani armorers are also in great supply. My 5 cents. A disclaimer: I could be able to express a more accurate opinion had I been able to hold this sword in my hands. Dating antiques by examining pictures is a dicey proposition.

12th June 2021, 05:04 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	As Ariel has noted, the 'industry' of creating representations of traditional weapons is well known in Afghanistan, particularly in Khyber and Northwest province regions, and has been since mid 19th c. I had not noticed the 'drag' on the chape, a distinctly western affectation reflecting the move to western influences post 2nd Afghan War (1879-80). By this time Afghanistan had become controlled by Great Britain much as in the Indian Raj, and the military was augmented by native units as well as the use of British uniform elements and weaponry. The Khyber knife was vestigially replaced by European style hilted short sabers, though these hilts were also placed on the heirloom blades of the Khyber knives in many cases. The inscription on this blade is likely in either Dari Persian or in Naskh if in Pashto. Unfortunately I cannot translate. The 'mecca stones' are an unusual affectation in these (I think Ashoka had one) and these are known in pommels of late 19th c Sudanese swords, so possibly a Sufi feature? On a personal note, my preference is to avoid overcleaning swords, primarily because I am a historian, and removing patination is to essentially remove history itself in a sense. Naturally it is important to stabilize a weapon from any active corrosion or rust, and add any minor repair to maintain the integrity of the weapon. However over cleaning and alteration typically remove the elements of the 'adventures' the weapon has gone through over time and its working life. Just my thoughts each collector has own preferences.

12th June 2021, 05:11 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If the contrast between physical conditions of the scabbard vs. blade is explained by your overeager cleaning ( note: this is my personal opinion, I prefer to keep mine with “ kisses of time”, but others might agree with you), the only issue remaining is the age of the filler: was the sword disassembled and/ or the handle is a replacement. Based on your recent pics with heavily patinated handle, I tend to think that the handle is original. If all is fine, the issue of age will be closed: not earlier than the end of 19 century, and then all the way up to the first third of the 20 century. This one does not look like a regulation weapon ( no government marks), and a private purchase is very likely. That could have happened any time withint the above time frame.