European blade in an African context

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2021, 08:26 PM

I found some examples of serving knives in "The Wallis Collection" (Mann, 1962) but will note that these are profoundly OLD! These are apparently 15th-16th century vintage, but it would seem the traditional form would have extended much further, given the simplicity of the form and the convention of continuing such styles fashionably for centuries.

As I have mentioned, Shotley Bridge had expanded its 'repertoire' into other cutlery and flatware (tableware) after the demand for sword blades had declined. Nearby Sheffield had also become a key producer of edged wares, and though they focused greatly on silver plate, other items were included.
I wonder if listings of Sheffield and other flatware producers in antique references might have either adopted the 'fox' or 'horse'?

Further, it would seem the most pertinent news that this scabbard is not crocodile, as appears in photos, but 'gutta percha' which is a latex type material produced from sap in Malaysian trees from 1850s+
As this is a faux crocodile hide scabbard, and clearly of Victorian context, why would we presume this item of flatware to be African?

Much of flatware produced in these times used exotic or colonial style motifs, horn, hides, staghorn etc. so is it possible this very atavistically styled serving knife might have been made recalling these early forms? and if Shotley or other northern cutler might have produced it?

colin henshaw · 7th June 2021, 01:35 PM

[QUOTE
Further, it would seem the most pertinent news that this scabbard is not crocodile, as appears in photos, but 'gutta percha' which is a latex type material produced from sap in Malaysian trees from 1850s+
As this is a faux crocodile hide scabbard, and clearly of Victorian context, why would we presume this item of flatware to be African?[/QUOTE]

As noted in previous posts, it is the hilt scales (not the scabbard), that are probably made from gutta-percha. The scabbard is made from crocodile skin.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2021, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

[QUOTE
Further, it would seem the most pertinent news that this scabbard is not crocodile, as appears in photos, but 'gutta percha' which is a latex type material produced from sap in Malaysian trees from 1850s+
As this is a faux crocodile hide scabbard, and clearly of Victorian context, why would we presume this item of flatware to be African?

As noted in previous posts, it is the hilt scales (not the scabbard), that are probably made from gutta-percha. The scabbard is made from crocodile skin.[/QUOTE]

I guess I might have approached that better. I was picturing the 'scabbard' as being made of a faux crocodile hide made of gutta percha. If it was just a composition of scales used to 'decorate' a scabbard, then that is quite different. Here I would consider the use of imported items such as cowrie shells, beads, and other material culture items imported from Europe and eslewhere, and these 'scales' used in the same manner to decorate.

Clearly my temporal image of something European (i.e. knife blade) using an 'exotic' material for decoration as in those flatware items made with stag horn etc. was probably far fetched

It is funny how that works, natives in colonial settings use domestic items from European context to decorate their own material culture; and the Europeans used colonial cultural items to decorate their own items and curiosities.
I often think of the Sudanese helmets worn along with coats of mail, which were proudly adorned with European spoons and forks from tableware settings in the latter 19th c.

So setting that aside, it goes back to a European domestic item of flatware repurposed into a chopping knife (?) going from photos, and likely arriving there from the prevalent trade contacts.
Again, I would suggest this blade was plausibly flatware produced in northern England by the Shotley Bridge enterprise in its waning days early 19th c. and following the early traditional forms (as illustrated in the Wallace Coll. photos.

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2021, 06:30 PM

Trying to find an exact match is difficult. Look at antique icing knives and spreaders. Also antique cake decorating knives. Google farrar and tanner wedding knives to see modern examples.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2021, 06:46 PM

See examples in post #9, which illustrate antique forms. These are obviously 'ancient' in comparison to Victorian antiques, however the Victorians favored notably antiquarian styles (i.e. Gothic etc.).
It would seem variations would prevail as with any form, however the 'spatulate' shape remains somewhat consistent as its purpose is to lift and serve a portion of food.

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2021, 07:05 PM

A picture from a long ago auction site. The hunting scene handle is nice.

ausjulius · 17th June 2021, 11:02 PM

well it definitely is an african sheath made of crocodile skin. but the knife i suspect is in its original form. it may not be a serving knife as im pretty sure that style was well out of favour for other narrower styles. based on those grips its 19th century.. but could it be a vetinarians knife instead, one for disction of larger animals.

6th June 2021, 08:26 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	I found some examples of serving knives in "The Wallis Collection" (Mann, 1962) but will note that these are profoundly OLD! These are apparently 15th-16th century vintage, but it would seem the traditional form would have extended much further, given the simplicity of the form and the convention of continuing such styles fashionably for centuries. As I have mentioned, Shotley Bridge had expanded its 'repertoire' into other cutlery and flatware (tableware) after the demand for sword blades had declined. Nearby Sheffield had also become a key producer of edged wares, and though they focused greatly on silver plate, other items were included. I wonder if listings of Sheffield and other flatware producers in antique references might have either adopted the 'fox' or 'horse'? Further, it would seem the most pertinent news that this scabbard is not crocodile, as appears in photos, but 'gutta percha' which is a latex type material produced from sap in Malaysian trees from 1850s+ As this is a faux crocodile hide scabbard, and clearly of Victorian context, why would we presume this item of flatware to be African? Much of flatware produced in these times used exotic or colonial style motifs, horn, hides, staghorn etc. so is it possible this very atavistically styled serving knife might have been made recalling these early forms? and if Shotley or other northern cutler might have produced it? Attached Images

7th June 2021, 06:30 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Trying to find an exact match is difficult. Look at antique icing knives and spreaders. Also antique cake decorating knives. Google farrar and tanner wedding knives to see modern examples. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th June 2021 at 06:44 PM.

7th June 2021, 07:05 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	A picture from a long ago auction site. The hunting scene handle is nice. Attached Images

7th June 2021, 01:35 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	[QUOTE Further, it would seem the most pertinent news that this scabbard is not crocodile, as appears in photos, but 'gutta percha' which is a latex type material produced from sap in Malaysian trees from 1850s+ As this is a faux crocodile hide scabbard, and clearly of Victorian context, why would we presume this item of flatware to be African?[/QUOTE] As noted in previous posts, it is the hilt scales (not the scabbard), that are probably made from gutta-percha. The scabbard is made from crocodile skin.

7th June 2021, 06:46 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	See examples in post #9, which illustrate antique forms. These are obviously 'ancient' in comparison to Victorian antiques, however the Victorians favored notably antiquarian styles (i.e. Gothic etc.). It would seem variations would prevail as with any form, however the 'spatulate' shape remains somewhat consistent as its purpose is to lift and serve a portion of food.

17th June 2021, 11:02 PM	#7
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 438	well it definitely is an african sheath made of crocodile skin. but the knife i suspect is in its original form. it may not be a serving knife as im pretty sure that style was well out of favour for other narrower styles. based on those grips its 19th century.. but could it be a vetinarians knife instead, one for disction of larger animals.