Dilemma on a bilbo

Helleri · 28th May 2021, 04:31 PM

This is more of an ethical query than anything else. A good question here would be, could you have discovered all this prior to placing your winning bid? Another question would be, do you think the Auction House was acting earnestly in it's assessment or is there reason to believe that they were knowingly trying to pass it off as older than it is?

Jim McDougall · 28th May 2021, 05:23 PM

This is most interesting, and quite honestly I was unaware of the modern products replicating these early examples of 'bilbo' . I think your approach is pretty amazing in that you have recognized not only the original antiquities, but the modern productions in Toledo, which as noted have their own place as antiques, but of more recent times.

It would be hard to say what to think of the representation as presented in the auction, but one would hope that absence of notice of the condition and inconsistencies which seemed apparent were simply an oversight by the auctioneer. In your case, as clearly a well informed and astute collector, you have gained an item which fits well in the scope of your collection, but in more modern grouping.

I think it would be good to notify the auction house of your observations and alert them that including that information would be important in their 'accurate' description of that or similar items, and you wished to increase their awareness. It is better to approach as an oversight and whatever adjustments that result would ultimately become acceptable by both parties.

midelburgo · 28th May 2021, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

This is more of an ethical query than anything else. A good question here would be, could you have discovered all this prior to placing your winning bid? Another question would be, do you think the Auction House was acting earnestly in it's assessment or is there reason to believe that they were knowingly trying to pass it off as older than it is?

In fact I know from that catalog since some 13 years ago, but somehow I thought all those swords were marked revealing they were copies, as most are.

Spanish swords are usually copied only as wall hangers, and their copies do not suppose the problems some other nationalities have. But here is an exception.

At first impression the sword really looks alike all the other real 1728s we are used to see. Specially because of the surface toning.

I do not think the auction house tried to deceive me. I have seen often their "curator" making mistakes, not surprising, as his field of expertise shall cover any period and geography.

Helleri · 28th May 2021, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

In fact I know from that catalog since some 13 years ago, but somehow I thought all those swords were marked revealing they were copies, as most are.

Spanish swords are usually copied only as wall hangers, and their copies do not suppose the problems some other nationalities have. But here is an exception.

At first impression the sword really looks alike all the other real 1728s we are used to see. Specially because of the surface toning.

I do not think the auction house tried to deceive me. I have seen often their "curator" making mistakes, not surprising, as his field of expertise shall cover any period and geography.

That answers one of the questions. But the other (to clarify) is could you have come to this realization about the nature of the piece prior to winning the bid had you a mind to investigate it then? Was it only some factor that came into play after winning the bid and only because of the way the bidding went that peaked your interest into taking a closer look. Or was it a lapse in your own due diligence into investigating the prospective purchase from the start?

midelburgo · 28th May 2021, 07:08 PM

Here there is an interesting psychological question. With the fact that bidding online is easy and covers the globe. I, and as I suppose, many of you, keep an eye on several auctions at the same time. If prices reaches above a threshold, you discard that piece. But you do not really became mentally involved in a piece until you see you can win it, and that is minutes before the auction end. This means I do not make a deep research of the item. There are many kinds of 1728,and this seemed another one of them. On the same day. There was a sword auctioned at Hermann Histórica that interested me more, but I did not win it, so I turned to the second choice.
Probably I will end taking the sword. I am curious to see how it handles.

Helleri · 28th May 2021, 07:20 PM

So it's down to the very nature of participating in an auction. Part of that nature being a degree of risk. A gamble on what you are paying for what you are getting.

There is another aspect to this however. If a piece sells for more than it is really worth, and if Auction house records go unchanged regarding the sale of that piece and remain inaccurate. That can harm the integrity of the system. It could with enough such small errors, artificially drive the price up on some items. So another question would be, do you have an onus to correct errors and receive fair pricing for the sake of preserving the integrity of the system?

Jim McDougall · 28th May 2021, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

So it's down to the very nature of participating in an auction. Part of that nature being a degree of risk. A gamble on what you are paying for what you are getting.

There is another aspect to this however. If a piece sells for more than it is really worth, and if Auction house records go unchanged regarding the sale of that piece and remain inaccurate. That can harm the integrity of the system. It could with enough such small errors, artificially drive the price up on some items. So another question would be, do you have an onus to correct errors and receive fair pricing for the sake of preserving the integrity of the system?

Well put Helleri, it does seem to me that errors, no matter how honest or unintended, should be addressed, not just to the benefit of the clientele, but those of the auction who stand to gain important detail and awareness.
It is their fiduciary responsibility to be as accurate as possible, and if reputation is of concern, should be grateful for input.

There is a great deal of psychology involved here, as noted, and often 'good deals' just happen due to degree of specialized traffic at the time to one item or another (I once got a great deal on an Uzbek sword amidst the volume of British military swords being presented).

I have a great deal of respect for those who catalog in many of the large auction houses, and have had the privilege of knowing a few. They would have been horribly chagrined if one of their entries had been inadequate.

Dmitry · 29th May 2021, 03:16 AM

It's a two-edged sword [no pun intended].
Let's consider a reverse scenario - had a rare and valuable sword been described incorrectly as a replica, and you happened to spot that prior to auction taking part, would you have the pins of conscience whether to inform them of their mistake, or to bid on such a find? I'm sure most of us live for finds like that.
Now, if the sword you're considering an early 20th c. production [now an antique in its own right] wasn't too expensive, it may actually be a nice piece to own. Do you have photos of it? Thank you for the Toledo catalog link!!! I bookmarked it.
Jim, re:fiduciary responsibility...I was banally screwed by a fiduciary a couple of years ago. To me it's just a term, like any other. It all depends on the individual, not the title in front or behind their name.

28th May 2021, 04:31 PM	#1
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	This is more of an ethical query than anything else. A good question here would be, could you have discovered all this prior to placing your winning bid? Another question would be, do you think the Auction House was acting earnestly in it's assessment or is there reason to believe that they were knowingly trying to pass it off as older than it is?

28th May 2021, 05:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	This is most interesting, and quite honestly I was unaware of the modern products replicating these early examples of 'bilbo' . I think your approach is pretty amazing in that you have recognized not only the original antiquities, but the modern productions in Toledo, which as noted have their own place as antiques, but of more recent times. It would be hard to say what to think of the representation as presented in the auction, but one would hope that absence of notice of the condition and inconsistencies which seemed apparent were simply an oversight by the auctioneer. In your case, as clearly a well informed and astute collector, you have gained an item which fits well in the scope of your collection, but in more modern grouping. I think it would be good to notify the auction house of your observations and alert them that including that information would be important in their 'accurate' description of that or similar items, and you wished to increase their awareness. It is better to approach as an oversight and whatever adjustments that result would ultimately become acceptable by both parties.

28th May 2021, 07:08 PM	#5
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Here there is an interesting psychological question. With the fact that bidding online is easy and covers the globe. I, and as I suppose, many of you, keep an eye on several auctions at the same time. If prices reaches above a threshold, you discard that piece. But you do not really became mentally involved in a piece until you see you can win it, and that is minutes before the auction end. This means I do not make a deep research of the item. There are many kinds of 1728,and this seemed another one of them. On the same day. There was a sword auctioned at Hermann Histórica that interested me more, but I did not win it, so I turned to the second choice. Probably I will end taking the sword. I am curious to see how it handles.

28th May 2021, 07:20 PM	#6
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	So it's down to the very nature of participating in an auction. Part of that nature being a degree of risk. A gamble on what you are paying for what you are getting. There is another aspect to this however. If a piece sells for more than it is really worth, and if Auction house records go unchanged regarding the sale of that piece and remain inaccurate. That can harm the integrity of the system. It could with enough such small errors, artificially drive the price up on some items. So another question would be, do you have an onus to correct errors and receive fair pricing for the sake of preserving the integrity of the system?

29th May 2021, 03:16 AM	#8
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	It's a two-edged sword [no pun intended]. Let's consider a reverse scenario - had a rare and valuable sword been described incorrectly as a replica, and you happened to spot that prior to auction taking part, would you have the pins of conscience whether to inform them of their mistake, or to bid on such a find? I'm sure most of us live for finds like that. Now, if the sword you're considering an early 20th c. production [now an antique in its own right] wasn't too expensive, it may actually be a nice piece to own. Do you have photos of it? Thank you for the Toledo catalog link!!! I bookmarked it. Jim, re:fiduciary responsibility...I was banally screwed by a fiduciary a couple of years ago. To me it's just a term, like any other. It all depends on the individual, not the title in front or behind their name.