yatagan hilt and scabbard, opinion welcomed

francantolin · 4th May 2021, 06:37 PM

A picture of the scabbard wooden inserts,
seems old,
the chape must be silver or silver alloy,
I clean it a little, I found
two interesting small stamps,
Sherlock investigations

Maybe it helps to fix the origin ( Turkish or Balkans for me but it's a large area... ) ?

francantolin · 4th May 2021, 08:20 PM

And the hilt,
not wood ( thank you , you were right !!)
but made of horn ,
and maybe gilted parts ? ( really nice carved-chiselled )

they are bright-shiny without cleaning
( but maybe the were cleaned not long time ago

)

Kind regards

mariusgmioc · 4th May 2021, 08:27 PM

Judging from the photos, it is an excellent 19th century Ottoman Yataghan. And my guess (based on the style of decoration) is that's from the Balkans. But this is just a guess.

To me, all parts appear to be original except the velvet which is a later replacement.

Definitely original scabbard.

Yes, fittings are gilt silver.

What is interesting with Ottoman silver alloys is that they tend to be much more resistant to oxidation than silver. High grade silver alloys oxidize and turn black in a few months but Ottoman silver alloys will keep their shine much longer, for years. Occasionally they may develop a faint yellowish patina from the copper/brass in their composition.

I suggest you take better photos of the koftgari and ask Kwiatek to help you with the translation of the text.

Gonzoadler · 4th May 2021, 08:53 PM

With the new photos I would say even the velvet is old.
It has a decorative stitching which is hard to craft and convincingly signs of wear.
The bright colour is no knock-out-criterion.
With the old photos I had'nt believed that.
Very nice piece, dont change anything

And if you don't like it, I do.

Regards
Robin

francantolin · 5th May 2021, 06:41 AM

Thank you Marius and Robin for your comments !

Good idea for the make a post just for the translation,
I'll try to make good pics, not always easy with my camera ,

kwiatek · 5th May 2021, 01:51 PM

An owner's inscription:

sahib mehmed ağa
tawakkaltu 'ala allah 1243

"The owner Mehmed Ağa.
I put my trust in God. 1243 (1827-8)"

Verses in cartouches

On the left, Arabic verses:

يا خفي الالطاف
نجنا مما نخاف

ya khafi al-altaf
najina mimma nakhaf

On the right, Turkish verses:

Adem geldi kadem basdı cihana
Ecel geldi bıçak ucu (?) bahane

"Mankind comes and places his foot in this world,
The tip (?) of a knife can be the excuse for his departure"

The Turkish verses are a variation on an inscription that you see on tombstones, but with what looks like 'the tip of a knife' substituted by 'a headache'! The word that I've read as 'tip' is not very clearly written, it might be something else. I've never seen this inscription on a yataghan before, thanks for sharing.

francantolin · 5th May 2021, 02:21 PM

Thank's a lot Kwiatek !!!!!
Really interesting

Saracen · 10th May 2021, 09:19 PM

1827 is a very interesting date for the Yatagan.
Only one year has passed since the liquidation of the Janissary Ojak.
At this time, the population actively destroyed any janissary attributes, including the tombstones of the janissaries.
For the former Janissaries and the Bektashi Order (99 Orta as part of the Janissary Ojak), Albania became a refuge at that time.
I think it is allows very carefully to assume that Albania is the site of the appearance of the Yatagan with this date.

4th May 2021, 06:37 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	A picture of the scabbard wooden inserts, seems old, the chape must be silver or silver alloy, I clean it a little, I found two interesting small stamps, Sherlock investigations Maybe it helps to fix the origin ( Turkish or Balkans for me but it's a large area... ) ? Attached Images

4th May 2021, 08:20 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	And the hilt, not wood ( thank you , you were right !!) but made of horn , and maybe gilted parts ? ( really nice carved-chiselled ) they are bright-shiny without cleaning ( but maybe the were cleaned not long time ago ) Kind regards Attached Images

4th May 2021, 08:53 PM	#4
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	With the new photos I would say even the velvet is old. It has a decorative stitching which is hard to craft and convincingly signs of wear. The bright colour is no knock-out-criterion. With the old photos I had'nt believed that. Very nice piece, dont change anything And if you don't like it, I do. Regards Robin Last edited by Gonzoadler; 4th May 2021 at 09:28 PM.

5th May 2021, 01:51 PM	#6
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	An owner's inscription: sahib mehmed ağa tawakkaltu 'ala allah 1243 "The owner Mehmed Ağa. I put my trust in God. 1243 (1827-8)" Verses in cartouches On the left, Arabic verses: يا خفي الالطاف نجنا مما نخاف ya khafi al-altaf najina mimma nakhaf On the right, Turkish verses: Adem geldi kadem basdı cihana Ecel geldi bıçak ucu (?) bahane "Mankind comes and places his foot in this world, The tip (?) of a knife can be the excuse for his departure" The Turkish verses are a variation on an inscription that you see on tombstones, but with what looks like 'the tip of a knife' substituted by 'a headache'! The word that I've read as 'tip' is not very clearly written, it might be something else. I've never seen this inscription on a yataghan before, thanks for sharing. Last edited by kwiatek; 5th May 2021 at 02:08 PM.

4th May 2021, 08:27 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Judging from the photos, it is an excellent 19th century Ottoman Yataghan. And my guess (based on the style of decoration) is that's from the Balkans. But this is just a guess. To me, all parts appear to be original except the velvet which is a later replacement. Definitely original scabbard. Yes, fittings are gilt silver. What is interesting with Ottoman silver alloys is that they tend to be much more resistant to oxidation than silver. High grade silver alloys oxidize and turn black in a few months but Ottoman silver alloys will keep their shine much longer, for years. Occasionally they may develop a faint yellowish patina from the copper/brass in their composition. I suggest you take better photos of the koftgari and ask Kwiatek to help you with the translation of the text.

5th May 2021, 06:41 AM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Thank you Marius and Robin for your comments ! Good idea for the make a post just for the translation, I'll try to make good pics, not always easy with my camera ,

5th May 2021, 02:21 PM	#7
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Thank's a lot Kwiatek !!!!! Really interesting

10th May 2021, 09:19 PM	#8
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	1827 is a very interesting date for the Yatagan. Only one year has passed since the liquidation of the Janissary Ojak. At this time, the population actively destroyed any janissary attributes, including the tombstones of the janissaries. For the former Janissaries and the Bektashi Order (99 Orta as part of the Janissary Ojak), Albania became a refuge at that time. I think it is allows very carefully to assume that Albania is the site of the appearance of the Yatagan with this date.