Sudanese Kaskara for Comment

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Edster

Mainly because Sudanese sufi traditions came from Arabian sufi masters rather than Persian. Also, my reading of Sudanese history doesn't support Persian influence unless the Persians critically influenced the Ottomans of Egypt.
Ed

Mmmm I don't know very much about these swords. But I have many books about Sufism.

You should be very careful, and read more about sufism before making any shortcuts or statment like that. Sufism is very much connected to the shiaa world. Please read about Alevi, Sufi Ottoman lodges and Bektashi... Then Egyptian Ottomans were colonisers in Sudan. Sudanese got Sufism from Mamluk Egypt and by the red Sea from Sufi lodges from India, and even Iran.

"Arabian masters" is almost a nonsense, as Arabian peninsular people very were and are very much against Sufism, please look at Wahhabism.

[Edster]

Kubur,

We both have done our homework, but we apparently see the Elephant from different positions. My reading of Sudanese Islam says that its Sunni Sufi orders came from places like Mecca, Iraq, Egypt & even Morocco beginning in the Funj Era (c. 1570) and even in the 19th C. and not from Shi'a Persia. Both Sunni & Shi'a orders have separate founders, history and traditions.

See a 1921 Sudanese Notes & Records article, "The Religious Confraternities of Sudan", attached.

If you get really bored I'll send you a copy of my dissertation about the Rahad Borderlands Study with its section on Popular Islam in the Eastern Sudan in 1984-85.

Since the issue is Persian influences on Sudanese weapons during the Mahdiya, design transmission may be speculatively via Mamluk routes from Egypt and not Sufism.

Best regards,
Ed

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Edster

See a 1921 Sudanese Notes & Records article, "The Religious Confraternities of Sudan", attached.

If you get really bored I'll send you a copy of my dissertation about the Rahad Borderlands Study with its section on Popular Islam in the Eastern Sudan in 1984-85.

Hi Ed,

Thank you very much for your article and if you have a pdf of your study, I'll be happy to read it. I'm sure it won't be boring.

Originally Posted by Edster

See a 1921 Sudanese Notes & Records article, "The Religious Confraternities of Sudan", attached.

1921 is a bit old and a huge amount of litterature has been published on this topic since the past 30 years, I'll be happy to send you some references too.

Originally Posted by Edster

My reading of Sudanese Islam says that its Sunni Sufi orders came from places like Iraq, Egypt & even Morocco

Correct but not only

Originally Posted by Edster

Both Sunni & Shi'a orders have separate founders, history

Correct

Originally Posted by Edster

Both Sunni & Shi'a orders have separate... traditions.

This is where you should go deeper, it's more complicated than shiaa and sunni. They have similar traditions.

Best wishes,
Kubur

[Edster]

Kubur,

I'm always eager to learn. Would appreciate good references. Here's a more recent paper by a Sudanese scholar on the Sammaniya order, the one the Mahdi was first associated with and which revived after Omdurman.

https://archive.org/stream/TheSamman...niyya_djvu.txt

Islam has always been worn loosely among Sudan's regular folk; i.e. Popular Islam. Likely there is a "class" component between Orthodox and Popular expressions of Sufism.

Dissertation's file is too large to attach. I'll try to send it via a PM.

Best regards,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

Ed and Kubur, absolutely intriguing on these religious matters which were certainly at hand in the uprisings and jihad which were of course the basis for the Mahdiyya, I must admit that I do not fully comprehend these complex matters, but it seems that I read the Mahdi was Sufi, then forbad it? but then it became prevalent again under the Caliph?

Persian influences which prevailed throughout India, Central Asia, Ottoman Empire and Arabia etc. as far as I have known were often 'indirect' but surely notable. While it is sometimes hard to explain the importance of religious character and influence concerning arms, as we rely on decoration and motif in identifying them it is most certainly pertinent.

Stu,
More on the 'thuluth' I found in my notes (passim),
"...workshops set up in towns such as Omdurman produced a range of artifacts including regalia, weaponry and armor which in one way or another reflected the Mahdists ideology, but which occasionally also displayed stylistic influences from much more diverse sources. Among such objects were these
non functional replica throwing knives, cut out of sheet metal and covered with the acid etched Arabic script known as thuluth in which exhortations from the Quran are written. Most likely these were given as Islamicized status symbols to the leaders of the elements of the Mahdist armies that consisted mainly of slaves".
"Art of a Continent", Philips, p.134, as noted by
Christopher Spring.

Also:
"..it is interesting to note that Central African throwing knives were found on the field at Omdurman, having been made at Khartoum. These were carried as an emblem of rank by leaders of certain slave elements of the Mahdist army who were pressed into service".
"Soldiers of the Queen", Victorian Military Society.

Many of these were throwing knives, haladies, and certain curious trowel type knives.
This illustrates, and dispels the notions that these were 'tourist' items, not used in battle, and that the calligraphy was 'jibberish' or nonsensical.
Some of these inscriptions actually note manufacture at Omdurman, and the reference to Khartoum derives from the fact that the arsenal at Khartoum was one of the few buildings not razed by Mahdist forces at its capture in 1885. There were huge supplies of material accumulated by Gordon for infrastructure including railroads and river boats, these and machinery were moved to Omdurman by the Caliph after the Mahdi's death in 1885.

So here is the true picture concerning the familiar calligraphy covered blades of not only kaskara, but the sundry other tribal weapons at Omdurman as well.

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by Edster

Kubur,

We both have done our homework, but we apparently see the Elephant from different positions. My reading of Sudanese Islam says that its Sunni Sufi orders came from places like Mecca, Iraq, Egypt & even Morocco beginning in the Funj Era (c. 1570) and even in the 19th C. and not from Shi'a Persia. Both Sunni & Shi'a orders have separate founders, history and traditions.

See a 1921 Sudanese Notes & Records article, "The Religious Confraternities of Sudan", attached.

If you get really bored I'll send you a copy of my dissertation about the Rahad Borderlands Study with its section on Popular Islam in the Eastern Sudan in 1984-85.

Since the issue is Persian influences on Sudanese weapons during the Mahdiya, design transmission may be speculatively via Mamluk routes from Egypt and not Sufism.

Best regards,
Ed

Thank you for the 1921 Sudan document.

I'd mention that the Sufic influence came from as far West as Spain in the form of Ibn Arabi who dates to the late 1100s, and whose travels took him across North Africa.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Mmmm I don't know very much about these swords. But I have many books about Sufism.

You should be very careful, and read more about sufism before making any shortcuts or statment like that. Sufism is very much connected to the shiaa world. Please read about Alevi, Sufi Ottoman lodges and Bektashi... Then Egyptian Ottomans were colonisers in Sudan. Sudanese got Sufism from Mamluk Egypt and by the red Sea from Sufi lodges from India, and even Iran.

"Arabian masters" is almost a nonsense, as Arabian peninsular people very were and are very much against Sufism, please look at Wahhabism.

indeed, I agree, as also centuries prior to the Madhi you had in the 13th century the Persian founders of the Mevlani ;Jalal ad-Din Rumi and Haci Bektas Veli of the Bektashi order, next to the 11th century Hakim Ghiyath-al-Din Abu'l-Fath Omar ibn Ibrahim Khayyam Nisaburi AKA Omar Kayam ( known from his Rubiyat) and Ibn Arabi who both influenced the complete Islamic world.
Even the followers of the Old Man on the Mountain of the Nizari who were the most closest to cold weapons used whatever was available..

Next to the fact that I am sceptical when I hear about sufi weapons... as if one would talk about catholic, protestant or greek orthodox weapons...?

Even in the regions were sufis live, they live amongst many other religions ( check Egypt, Lebanon. Irak and Syria in the Mahdi era... ) Even the Sudan harboured many religions...so I am quite doubtfull, no offfence intended.