Jian Sword Buddha

[mariusgmioc]

I have very little knowledge about antique Chinese swords but what I know is that it is extremely, extremely difficult to find genuine antique fighting jian swords.

Even before the rise of Communism in China, old swords were frequently molten and the steel reused, and the majority of extant examples are decorative/tai chi ones from 1900 or later.

On top of that, because of extreme rarity of genuine antique swords, even from the beginning of the 20th century (1900 and later) there was a booming industry of producing "antique" jian swords that ranged in quality from examples that are practically undistinguishable from the originals to phantasy antiquated examples. These swords were aimed not only for the foreign amateurs of exotic souvenirs but also for the internal market, as they were both considered to bring good luck while being symbolic weapons for martial arts practitioners.

[JoeCanada42]

Thank You Kronckew, for the full English translations

and thanks Marius for the info,

Personally the though of a battle weapon wasn't a consideration in the purchase,, finding an old talisman sword was interesting enough. I couldn't see the buddha sword being used in battle. but I did suspect a temple sword or talisman sword that could be old.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I have very little knowledge about antique Chinese swords but what I know is that it is extremely, extremely difficult to find genuine antique fighting jian swords.

Even before the rise of Communism in China, old swords were frequently molten and the steel reused, and the majority of extant examples are decorative/tai chi ones from 1900 or later.

On top of that, because of extreme rarity of genuine antique swords, even from the beginning of the 20th century (1900 and later) there was a booming industry of producing "antique" jian swords that ranged in quality from examples that are practically undistinguishable from the originals to phantasy antiquated examples. These swords were aimed not only for the foreign amateurs of exotic souvenirs but also for the internal market, as they were both considered to bring good luck while being symbolic weapons for martial arts practitioners.

Having handled, researched, and restored many of these "extreme rarity" swords since the 1970s, I must disagree. It's easy to assume from the tons of crappy fakes floating around that the genuine old ones are very rare, but not necessarily so. Many older blades have been remounted, at later periods and even in modern times. Museums such as the Met, and the Peabody-Essex Museum (Salem, MA) have extensive collections of antique Chinese sabers and swords (not all on display, many have to been seen in the depot), so a study of these, and comparison with those seen on the market and in private collections, can give a serious researcher a good idea of what's the real deal, what's BS, and what's been monkeyed with.

And contrary to what you state, it's not all that difficult to distinguish pieces made for the 19th cent. curio trade from those of earlier periods, there are notable qualitative and design differences. If you "have very little knowledge about antique Chinese swords" perhaps this might explain your perception. It's as though I, who have little knowledge or appreciation of keris, would try to venture opinions on what is old and important versus the new stuff being circulated in the contemporary collectors' marketplace.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Philip

And contrary to what you state, it's not all that difficult to distinguish pieces made for the 19th cent. curio trade from those of earlier periods, there are notable qualitative and design differences.

I agree at 100%. I have several Chinese swords and they are all in between 1850 and 1920. The 1900-1920 swords and the so-called boxer rebellion are not difficult to find. The problem is when people don't know they mix everything. Look at the post 36:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=36

Two swords completely different, but they "look" the same of course...
Plus don't rely on museums, they do huge mistakes (Royal armouries museum for example)...

[kronckew]

After many Oops's here and elsewhere, I've learned:

1. Always take Museum and Auction House item descriptions with a grain of salt. Their source may have just repeated a label he was given by a previous owner, or 'Improved' on it to make the item more attractive. Or the 'expert' just guessed.
2. If it looks too good to be true, it probably isn't.
3. Caveat Emptor.
4. Many 'Experts' aren't.
5. Google is not your friend.
6.If an Item has been inventoried, photographed and shown publicly for over a century and well documented, and other examples exist from reputable sources, it just might really be an antique.
7.They made 'replicas' well over a hundred years ago for collectors and those who travel.
7a. Sightseeing has been a popular sport from millennia or longer.
7b. People also commissioned copies of stuff they admired. Especially if they were unlikely to actually be used when the fit hits the shan, like French (& English) senior officers 'Mameluke' sabres and US Marine officers.
7c. Some fakes are better made with better steel than the originals.
8. The blurrier the photo the more likely it's a fake.
9. Always carry a knife. (Gibb's rule #9)
10. Sometimes I forget to read my own rules.
10a. There are more numbers to add to this list I haven't found yet.

[mariusgmioc]

The opinion I posted above is what I learned from a Chinese curator.

A few years ago, I wanted to sell two "19th century" jian swords, and I thought I can fetch a better price selling them in China with a Chinese auction house.

So I contacted one of the largest auction houses in Beijing, and one in Hong Kong asking them if they would like to take my swords. They both declined, citing problems with authenticity. So I asked for details and the guy from Beijing (who was also working with a big museum there) explained me what I essentially summarised above.

So I ended selling them with an European auction house.

Boxer Rebellion took place in 1899-1901... and their main weapon of choice was the dao.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The opinion I posted above is what I learned from a Chinese expert.



So I contacted one of the largest auction houses in Beijing, and one in Hong Kong asking them if they would like to take my swords. They both declined, citing problems with authenticity. So I asked for details and the guy from Beijing (who was also working with a big museum there) explained me what I essentially summarised above.

Yes indeed. The two posts just previous, by Kubur and Kronckew, aptly point out the hazards of relying on "experts". Relying on Chinese auction "experts" has special shortcomings. The antiques collecting and trade in the PRC is a comparatively recent revival after having been decimated by the fanaticism of the Mao years. Destruction of the "Four Olds", including both things and ideas. (Have you seen the movie "The Red Violin"? The China segment of the story is as close to history as cinema can get.) Keep in mind that this is a country with a regime that limits access to knowledge and tries to control the historical narrative.

When I mentioned my decades-long research into this field (others too like early firearms ) it did not involve just looking at pictures and going through catalog cards in museums. It took getting permission to handle all this stuff in person, lots of it, taking a ton of notes and photos. Discussing with curators, and also looking at depiction in period photos, art work, etc. Comparing styles and craftsmanship with that in analogous applied arts of various periods. Working with colleagues who read the lingo a lot better than I, determining in the process that there are such documents as gazetteers, palace inventories, military production specs, and so forth. Getting the "big picture" from the historical narrative -- about trade, conquest, fashion. Looking at developments in fields such as the metalworking and furniture industries going back to Ming times and even before for an insight into raw materials production and procurement. A lot of geek stuff like this. You find out soon that the Boxer Rebellion is not the huge benchmark that most collectors seem to think it is.

Just look at Donald LaRocca's magisterial book on Tibetan arms, Warriors of the Himalayas... Before this was published, the comment from most collectors was, "is there any info to be had about this field?", having known only Stone's Glossary and perhaps Egerton's Handbook of Indian Arms. Think about the amount of digging that Mr LaRocca had to do to pull this off.

There is a Harvard PhD, H H Kang, whose thesis on Korean matchlocks is groundbreaking. Surviving examples of the guns are relatively few, thanks to disarmament of the country by the Japanese and the massive losses of the Korean War. But by means of broad-ranging and thorough research he has come up with an amazing body of info, and I can say from personal correspondence that he isn't done yet.

[kronckew]

Another thought on context; I've read that the Jian was a 'scholars' sword, for their self-defence. Presumably this was a subject they also studied to be effective with it.

...But what else did 'Scholars' study, aside from learning the tens of thousands of characters and combinations of them.

The Chinese Government was based on Confucianism. The system required testing, written and oral exams, not only for entry, but for advancement to the next higher level. If you didn't pass the exam, you stayed at your current level. No rising to your level of incompetence, you stayed at your last level of competence. The study of the Jian was considered to take a lifetime. The Military preferred the Dao, which you learned fast, or died in battle. The Dao was also part of a weapons system with shields, armour, pole arms, artillery, missile weapons, strategy and tactics, not needed by civilians who liked to dance in well regulated patterns, the Dao was for killing, the Jian for showing off.