Shooting a jezail rifle

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... it is impossible to predict how metal aging has affected the steel.

Aged steel can become alarmingly brittle and crack under minimal stress. And gun barrel steel is quite well known of aging badly.
...
Marius

I read somewhere (Churchill?) that at the battle of Omdurman in 1898, many of the Mahdi's men wore rather old maille. It was noted that it had a bad habit of shattering when hit with a sabre or lance (or a bullet). Pre-industrial steel was rather variable before the mid 19c. Early primers as well as gunpowder residue were rather corrosive to barrels if not washed out quickly after use.

[Kubur]

Hi guys,

I just want to say that Marius is a very polite and respectuous forum member, a gentleman like many forum members. Marius can be ironic and he does some jokes, and as I remember, I was also his "victim", but it was well placed and I wasn't offended.

Now the two points of Marius are very valid:

Can we use antique weapons?
Is it dangerous to shot with antique guns?

I love this thread and I admire Schilda, Bobi and of course Rick!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=26201&page=2

But I don't know if you are unconscious or if your knowledge of antique firearms is such that you know that you can use such weapons.

Please tell us more about this point how did you check that you can use an antique gun? And how are you sure that it won't explode in your hands?

The second point is: can we use antique arms? Is it serious and respectful?

For Bobi13, it is part of his culture and there is a cultural link and continuity that I can understand. I use antique incense burner and I don't feel guilty...

So it's more an ethical problem and each of us has his own response. After all you are free to do whatever you want with your possession...

Now I have to look for my egg...

[SchildaBrit]

1) Can we use antique guns?

2) Is it dangerous to shoot with antique guns?

-----------------------------

Good morning everybody!

I shall endeavour to answer the above questions in a satisfactory manner. In the course of which it is also appropriate to make some presentation of myself, so that you may judge whether my answers are worth reading.

-------------------------

I first shot full-bore rifles as a CCF cadet more than 60 years ago, having started with small-bore rifles a year or two previously. And safety was stressed from Day 1.

As a rifle shooter, I thus permit myself the predicate "experienced".

Despite one's inner conviction of being an "advanced teenager", there comes a time when one realizes that it is futile to compete with those in their teens and twenties. I became more interested in the historical aspect of what I was shooting than in squeezing out a couple more 10x's.

It has taken me a further two decades to progress from shooting replica muzzle-loaders to the jezail rifle. It is not a spontaneous whim, but the result of a long progress back through the development of rifles. A kind of experimental archaeology of the recent past.

Among the armchair experts, of which there are far too many with time on their hands to propound secondhand prejudices based on no personal experience whatever, there is a simple equation "old = inaccurate = useless". It is demonstrably not so.

So we come to the first question:

Can we use antique guns?

I am restricting the comments to guns, as that is where my knowledge and experience lies. The contributors to this forum appear to be mainly collectors, and there is very little comment on actually using antique guns.

Leaving aside the vexatious question of what constitutes an antique, I therefore suggest that those who have further interest in following this thread go here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...ssion-arms-f4/

where one may see that there are quite a few serious people who share my predilection for shooting old guns.

I shall continue in a day or so, but please take the opportunity to take a look around the above forum in the meantime.

A pleasant Easter to All !

Patrick Chadwick

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

1) Can we use antique guns?

2) Is it dangerous to shoot with antique guns?

-----------------------------

Good morning everybody!

I shall endeavour to answer the above questions in a satisfactory manner. In the course of which it is also appropriate to make some presentation of myself, so that you may judge whether my answers are worth reading.

-------------------------

I first shot full-bore rifles as a CCF cadet more than 60 years ago, having started with small-bore rifles a year or two previously. And safety was stressed from Day 1.

As a rifle shooter, I thus permit myself the predicate "experienced".

Despite one's inner conviction of being an "advanced teenager", there comes a time when one realizes that it is futile to compete with those in their teens and twenties. I became more interested in the historical aspect of what I was shooting than in squeezing out a couple more 10x's.

It has taken me a further two decades to progress from shooting replica muzzle-loaders to the jezail rifle. It is not a spontaneous whim, but the result of a long progress back through the development of rifles. A kind of experimental archaeology of the recent past.

Among the armchair experts, of which there are far too many with time on their hands to propound secondhand prejudices based on no personal experience whatever, there is a simple equation "old = inaccurate = useless". It is demonstrably not so.

So we come to the first question:

Can we use antique guns?

I am restricting the comments to guns, as that is where my knowledge and experience lies. The contributors to this forum appear to be mainly collectors, and there is very little comment on actually using antique guns.

Leaving aside the vexatious question of what constitutes an antique, I therefore suggest that those who have further interest in following this thread go here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...ssion-arms-f4/

where one may see that there are quite a few serious people who share my predilection for shooting old guns.

I shall continue in a day or so, but please take the opportunity to take a look around the above forum in the meantime.

A pleasant Easter to All !

Patrick Chadwick

Beautifully expressed Patrick!!! very professional and insights into the actual viability of actual firing of these old guns. Thank you.

[David R]

Originally Posted by kronckew

I read somewhere (Churchill?) that at the battle of Omdurman in 1898, many of the Mahdi's men wore rather old maille. It was noted that it had a bad habit of shattering when hit with a sabre or lance (or a bullet). Pre-industrial steel was rather variable before the mid 19c. Early primers as well as gunpowder residue were rather corrosive to barrels if not washed out quickly after use.

To the best of my knowledge a lot of that Mahdist mail had been made in Birmingham (UK) originally as dress armour for the Khediv's troops, and then looted by the victorious Mahdists. They were made of split rings, and so were in fact spring steel. Swords weren't the problem, but high velocity jacketed 303 were.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David R

To the best of my knowledge a lot of that Mahdist mail had been made in Birmingham (UK) originally as dress armour for the Khediv's troops, and then looted by the victorious Mahdists. They were made of split rings, and so were in fact spring steel. Swords weren't the problem, but high velocity jacketed 303 were.

While digressing a bit here re: mail, it is salient to consider the durability of metal with quality, age and compromising through neglect etc.

Much of the mail made for the Khedive's troops was indeed made in Birmingham as noted, and was more dress intended than the more substantial mail for combat that was well known from various other sources. If I have understood correctly, the butted ring type mail (as I think this was) would split and separate on impact, so the considerable impact of a bullet with velocity would not only penetrate, but shatter, adding to the shrapnel of the bullet itself.

While sword impact would not necessarily penetrate, the mail would carry the force through leading to blunt force trauma in according degree.

There was a degree of older mail extant with sources mostly Mamluk which had circulated for years, but as with older metal compromised by corrosion through neglect, much of this was likely unserviceable in the same manner.
Corroded metal is of course susceptible to shattering when impacted by strong force.