What do I have?

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm really more than a little surprised that nobody has jumped in and responded to these questions. I noted the thread probably within a couple of hours of it appearing and deliberately withheld comment because I thought there would be a flood of responses.

I've waited long enough, now everybody can jump in & tell me I'm wrong

1) I don't know, might be Peninsula or Lombok, or some other place that is far from core keris culture; I think I'll just take the Javanese line:- "diluar Jowo" --- which to a Javanese keris fancier means "well, its not Javanese, so it really doesn't matter much what it is". Pretty exclusivist point of view, but that's the way it is.

2) Bugis; if I say "Bugis" I am not necessarily saying that it comes from Sulawesi, the form is --- or at least appears to be in the foto --- Bugis with flat blade faces --- it could be from anywhere that the Bugis blade form was found.

3) As for #2

4) Probably Javanese, probably West Jawa

5) Javanese influenced, but from Jawa? I don't know.

6) Bugis influence, but probably Peninsula; close examination of the hilt might narrow it down a bit --- someone else can do this, I don't have time

7) Maduro

8) I would need to handle these to be able to support an opinion.

[Jean]

Blade N° 1 with 15 luk is very thick & wide and has a clear ada-ada, deep kruwingan, and flattened pesi. It reminds me of the 16th or 17th century blades from Banten or Blambangan although it is rather rustic.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm really more than a little surprised that nobody has jumped in and responded to these questions. I noted the thread probably within a couple of hours of it appearing and deliberately withheld comment because I thought there would be a flood of responses.

I was thinking pretty much along the same line Alan, but i think the problem here is one of too many items presented for opinion at the same time. I think posting one keris at a time for feedback is always best unless there is a certain connection between multiple blades offered for discussion.

[grendolino]

Thank you very much for your responses. Would it be better to start new thread for any item. Maeby give some more details? Dimensions.
I am pretty much concerned about the first one as it is trick and robust so much I had never seen before

[A. G. Maisey]

I can understand the bulk offering David.

I doubt that Grendolino is looking for a discussion of his items, from what he has written I'd take him as a general collector who has stumbled upon a few pretty ordinary old keris and all he wants to do is catalogue them.

What I did not understand was the lack of response. Maybe everybody who looked at the thread thought the same as I did.

Jean, i have a few of these older Banten keris, and I've handled even more. Generally speaking these are very class keris. The detail work on this keris #1 is not in the same street, and the way in which the luk are arranged does in my opinion move this keris decidedly into second or third string. I cannot see even a whisp of Blambangan in it.

I think that if somebody pointed a gun at my head and forced me to make a choice I'd probably give it as Peninsula, but Lombok looks pretty viable too.

[grendolino]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can understand the bulk offering David.

I doubt that Grendolino is looking for a discussion of his items, from what he has written I'd take him as a general collector who has stumbled upon a few pretty ordinary old keris and all he wants to do is catalogue them.

What I did not understand was the lack of response. Maybe everybody who looked at the thread thought the same as I did.

Jean, i have a few of these older Banten keris, and I've handled even more. Generally speaking these are very class keris. The detail work on this keris #1 is not in the same street, and the way in which the luk are arranged does in my opinion move this keris decidedly into second or third string. I cannot see even a whisp of Blambangan in it.

I think that if somebody pointed a gun at my head and forced me to make a choice I'd probably give it as Peninsula, but Lombok looks pretty viable too.

Sorry to say i am not able to start to discuss with the experts in the field. What I wanted was to know what those blade are, how ordynarne or complex they are and try to imagine how they would Look in their complete form not mention that it would be wonderfull to restorevthem to their previous glory

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can understand the bulk offering David.

I doubt that Grendolino is looking for a discussion of his items, from what he has written I'd take him as a general collector who has stumbled upon a few pretty ordinary old keris and all he wants to do is catalogue them.

What I did not understand was the lack of response. Maybe everybody who looked at the thread thought the same as I did.

Well Alan, my response was an attempt to explain the lack of response and nothing more. I will not make any assumptions about what Grendolino might be looking for in terms of feedback, but i do know that when i see a post with more than a half dozen unrelated keris all lined up looking to be categorized i tend to take a pass. Especially if no real searching questions have been asked. I think others might feel the same way. Grendolino may or may not be looking for a discussion, but discussion is what i come here for, not simply to place a bunch of keris in their appropriate boxes. I also think many of us have seen similar posts in the past that are merely attempts to gather a few name categories in order to resell keris they have recently stumbled upon. Again, i do not assume that is Grendolino's game here, just trying to explain why fellow keris collectors may have decided not to respond here.
That said i would say that #6 would really be quite a nice keris if given a bit of attention and renovation. I do not believe it is Peninsula though. My thought is more likely somewhere in Sumatra.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, understood David, but really, I don't pass on too many questions if I have a halfway OK response, and someone else has not got there first. I don't care what Grendolino wants out of his post, he asked a question, it is easily answered so why not respond?

Anyway, #6, yeah looks like it could come up pretty nice.

Frankly, to me, the important thing is the Bugis influence, in Jawa this would simply be "Bugis", no matter where it might have been made. I voted for Peninsula because I think I've seen more manipulated pamors from there than other places, but really, the hilt could push me in a different direction.

[grendolino]

Sorry to start the thread in that manner that it merely Goes around the conduct and treat me as an object instead of the kerisses i post.
No I dont want to resell them, i bought them because they seemed to me better ones than the rest i Had seen in my country available so far and because when i see such homeless ethnographic objects from the world Rich in meaning i simply regret their fate and try to Save them from the indolents who form the legion of buyers.
So, being the humble reader of those forum i tend for the opinion of experts simply not posing as one who knows much.
This is how discussion start in my opinion: there is an object and they
Are the People who know something to share for the collective wisdom sake.
So far so good. Thanks to you i Know something about those blade
So: thank you.

[David]

Originally Posted by grendolino

Sorry to start the thread in that manner that it merely Goes around the conduct and treat me as an object instead of the kerisses i post.
No I dont want to resell them, i bought them because they seemed to me better ones than the rest i Had seen in my country available so far and because when i see such homeless ethnographic objects from the world Rich in meaning i simply regret their fate and try to Save them from the indolents who form the legion of buyers.
So, being the humble reader of those forum i tend for the opinion of experts simply not posing as one who knows much.
This is how discussion start in my opinion: there is an object and they
Are the People who know something to share for the collective wisdom sake.
So far so good. Thanks to you i Know something about those blade
So: thank you.

My apologies if you felt you were being treated like an object. My posts were simply to explain to Alan why i thought no one immediately posted responses. You certainly didn't do anything incorrectly with your post. My suggestion that posting singular items rather than dropping an entire lot in a single post for assessment was just that, a suggestion. And i believe i was clear when i mentioned people who post looking for info to resell that i was not assuming that was your intention. So please don't take offense.
Thanks for saving these from the indolent legions. Frankly, if this is your entry point into the world of keris you probably did much better with this lot than most beginner keris collectors.

[Athanase]

Overall I have the same opinion as the others for the origins.

1: The size looks large which might make you think of the ancient Java Kriss from the 17th century or Lombok or Bali, but the blade carving seems too coarse to me. I find in fact that it can have a Peninsula side and also reminds some aspects of the oldest blades of Kriss Moro.
Either it is an old Javanese or Balinese blade whose sculpture was originally finer, but the sculpture was dulled by poor maintenance in the long term (derusting with a file which dulled the ridges?) .

2 and 3: Bugis blade

4: Java

5: I would think of Sumatra as the greneng is really seems crudely carved, it would have been better carved on a Javanese blade.

6: very beautiful Bugis blade, The scabbard reminds me of either Sumatra or the Malay Peninsula.

7: Madura (nice dress).

8: the wood is from Java (I think East Java)
the metal is from Sumatra.

[grendolino]

Originally Posted by Athanase

Overall I have the same opinion as the others for the origins.

1: The size looks large which might make you think of the ancient Java Kriss from the 17th century or Lombok or Bali, but the blade carving seems too coarse to me. I find in fact that it can have a Peninsula side and also reminds some aspects of the oldest blades of Kriss Moro.
Either it is an old Javanese or Balinese blade whose sculpture was originally finer, but the sculpture was dulled by poor maintenance in the long term (derusting with a file which dulled the ridges?) .

2 and 3: Bugis blade

4: Java

5: I would think of Sumatra as the greneng is really seems crudely carved, it would have been better carved on a Javanese blade.

6: very beautiful Bugis blade, The scabbard reminds me of either Sumatra or the Malay Peninsula.

7: Madura (nice dress).

8: the wood is from Java (I think East Java)
the metal is from Sumatra.

Thank you.
No file signs on the first one.
Metal sarong is silver. Tested

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, i have a few of these older Banten keris, and I've handled even more. Generally speaking these are very class keris. The detail work on this keris #1 is not in the same street, and the way in which the luk are arranged does in my opinion move this keris decidedly into second or third string. I cannot see even a whisp of Blambangan in it.

I think that if somebody pointed a gun at my head and forced me to make a choice I'd probably give it as Peninsula, but Lombok looks pretty viable too.

Hello Alan,
Regarding the possible Lombok origin, I have carefully reviewed the book "Keris di Lombok" by Lalu Djelenga (which shows a lot of krisses) and found only one blade vaguely similar to keris N° 1 from Grendolino, but with a more slender shape (see pic).
Any way the craftsmanship of this blade is quite poor so it is not worth much discussion indeed.