Curious marriage: a Kard

Gonzoadler · 11th March 2021, 09:05 PM

...

Saracen · 11th March 2021, 09:55 PM

Ottoman kard in a scabbard made by a Lak master.
Manufacturing technique and composition Dagestanian (Gonzoadler, pay attention to the traditional edging of these scabbard and the edging of the bottom of your four-petal flowers),
but in the center of the composition, instead of Lak motifs, there are elements of the traditional Ottoman ornament of Rumi (Anatolian).
This scabbard was made by a Dagestani master in the Ottoman Empire for a Turkish owner.

Compare the shape and proportions of your scabbard and all the Central Asian ones shown. They are different.

ariel · 12th March 2021, 01:07 PM

Gonzoadler,
Let me clarify what I said earlier: I am afraid I was not clear enough.

IMHO, the scabbard bears some marks of a Turkish style, and my main point is the upturned elongated ending of it. This is very similar to the stylized “dolphin” that we routinely see on yataghan scabbards. But the silverwork is “Caucasian”, Lak style of embossing. Starting late 19th century, ethnic borders of decoration in that area became blurred and largely uniform: silversmiths became itinerant and started working in almost industrial workshops. This, silverworks from large centers , - Tiflis, Akhaltsikhe, Vladikabkaz etc , became by and large virtually identical. Some went to Turkey and Persia, and some went to Central Asia.

My reference to Meskheti masters did not refer to the style of decorations,.
I was talking only about dating. At the end of 19-beginning of 20 century Caucasian style could have been introduced to Central Asia from any of the above areas. But in 1944 there was a sudden inflow of more than 100,000 Turks from the Samtskhe-Javakheti area who were evicted from their homes and forcibly resettled in Central Asia. Thus, there was a distinct possibility, - almost certainty,- that among them were at least several silversmiths who managed to find jobs there. It did not change the style of their work, but just added another potential time interval to the date of manufacture. No more. That was the reason I mentioned them. Hope I made myself clearer this time around.

Regretfully their material culture was extinguished and I have no idea whether there even are authentic examples of their old works in Georgian museums to find comparisons.

Gonzoadler · 12th March 2021, 10:49 PM

Ok ariel, sounds possible.
In my opinion it is less likely than central asia (because of some pieces like in this thread) but I wouldn't exclude it completely. The parts the dagger is made of looking old to me. However I have Kindjals which are from the second half of the 20th century and the silver work is of good quality.
So it is sometimes difficult to estimate the age of pieces in caucasian style.

Regards

ariel · 13th March 2021, 04:57 AM

You are 100% correct: contemporary Georgian masters have improved immensely over the past 10-20 years.
And I am not talking about real superstars: Zaqro Nonikashvili, who makes full-length wootz saber blades, and Gotcha Lagidze who not only restores old weapons but makes truly authentic replicas.

Not surprising: the same story happened in India, when local Rajahs were encouraged to establish workshops replicating truly old weapons. Within the same time interval, they were producing masterpieces that (apparently) take a substantial ( allegedly) parts of the Wallace collection in London and al-Sabah collection in Kuwait as dated to the 16-17th centuries. One thing remained largely unconquered: Persian-style wootz blades.

fernando · 14th March 2021, 11:50 AM

Ariel, your PM box is full.

ariel · 14th March 2021, 03:31 PM

Done.
Now it has only 3 messages left. I have space for the entire collection of Proust’s works:-)

Saracen · 14th March 2021, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

...

This is the most obvious way to attach the removable locket to the scabbard.
On the Central Asian scabbard, the connection is masked by elements of the composition of the ornament and turquoise.
The Gonzoadler's scabbard doesn't even attempt to hide this connection.
This is in the Ottoman tradition. In the Ottoman tradition a removable locket always stands out stylistically on an all-metal scabbard, even when it is one-piece with a scabbard.
Аlso the Gonzoadler's scabbard has the absolutely Ottoman form of the end of the scabbard.
Central Asian scabbard kards like in post 10,
unites Central Asian and Dagestan elements in the decor.
Dagestani elements are only in the center.
The Gonzoadler's scabbard has no Central Asian elements at all. On what basis can they be attributed to Central Asia?

11th March 2021, 09:05 PM	#1
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	... Attached Images

11th March 2021, 09:55 PM	#2
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	Ottoman kard in a scabbard made by a Lak master. Manufacturing technique and composition Dagestanian (Gonzoadler, pay attention to the traditional edging of these scabbard and the edging of the bottom of your four-petal flowers), but in the center of the composition, instead of Lak motifs, there are elements of the traditional Ottoman ornament of Rumi (Anatolian). This scabbard was made by a Dagestani master in the Ottoman Empire for a Turkish owner. Compare the shape and proportions of your scabbard and all the Central Asian ones shown. They are different. Attached Images

12th March 2021, 01:07 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gonzoadler, Let me clarify what I said earlier: I am afraid I was not clear enough. IMHO, the scabbard bears some marks of a Turkish style, and my main point is the upturned elongated ending of it. This is very similar to the stylized “dolphin” that we routinely see on yataghan scabbards. But the silverwork is “Caucasian”, Lak style of embossing. Starting late 19th century, ethnic borders of decoration in that area became blurred and largely uniform: silversmiths became itinerant and started working in almost industrial workshops. This, silverworks from large centers , - Tiflis, Akhaltsikhe, Vladikabkaz etc , became by and large virtually identical. Some went to Turkey and Persia, and some went to Central Asia. My reference to Meskheti masters did not refer to the style of decorations,. I was talking only about dating. At the end of 19-beginning of 20 century Caucasian style could have been introduced to Central Asia from any of the above areas. But in 1944 there was a sudden inflow of more than 100,000 Turks from the Samtskhe-Javakheti area who were evicted from their homes and forcibly resettled in Central Asia. Thus, there was a distinct possibility, - almost certainty,- that among them were at least several silversmiths who managed to find jobs there. It did not change the style of their work, but just added another potential time interval to the date of manufacture. No more. That was the reason I mentioned them. Hope I made myself clearer this time around. Regretfully their material culture was extinguished and I have no idea whether there even are authentic examples of their old works in Georgian museums to find comparisons.

12th March 2021, 10:49 PM	#4
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Ok ariel, sounds possible. In my opinion it is less likely than central asia (because of some pieces like in this thread) but I wouldn't exclude it completely. The parts the dagger is made of looking old to me. However I have Kindjals which are from the second half of the 20th century and the silver work is of good quality. So it is sometimes difficult to estimate the age of pieces in caucasian style. Regards

13th March 2021, 04:57 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are 100% correct: contemporary Georgian masters have improved immensely over the past 10-20 years. And I am not talking about real superstars: Zaqro Nonikashvili, who makes full-length wootz saber blades, and Gotcha Lagidze who not only restores old weapons but makes truly authentic replicas. Not surprising: the same story happened in India, when local Rajahs were encouraged to establish workshops replicating truly old weapons. Within the same time interval, they were producing masterpieces that (apparently) take a substantial ( allegedly) parts of the Wallace collection in London and al-Sabah collection in Kuwait as dated to the 16-17th centuries. One thing remained largely unconquered: Persian-style wootz blades.

14th March 2021, 11:50 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ariel, your PM box is full.

14th March 2021, 03:31 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Done. Now it has only 3 messages left. I have space for the entire collection of Proust’s works:-)