African cuirass?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando, good observation on the open fronts of these 'vests', and I agree that the frontal area was probably considered protected by the shields, which from examples I have seen were rather elongated and vertical in most cases.
It is curious to imagine these kinds of armor defense and how the agility of the warrior might have been impaired. Without really knowing the warfare tactics and techniques of these tribes it is hard to say.

While not wishing to belabor the 'cult' probability of our discussion armor, I have continued researching that aspect, and wanted to share some findings and observations. I realize that this aspect of subject matter may be somewhat objectionable to many, so I try to keep details objective and somewhat redacted. Tribal practices in many of these regions in West Africa have never been a 'pretty picture' from western perceptions, and the activities of colonial incursion certainly were notably aggravating as well.

To the use of the iron cuirass mounting affiixed to the apparently much older crocodile hide, I had suggested earlier perhaps it was for added defense from bullets in the now advanced circumstances with firearms. The question was how effective would this iron be, as it seems the weight was quite light.

I wanted to add for comparison, the iron armor used by the Australian outlaw Ned Kelly, which was fashioned from plough molds and apparantly 'bush forged' (rather than by professional blacksmith). This meant that this was done in pieces with some parts heated and bent over green trunks, and riveted together. The iron was 1/4" thick.
It was cumbersome and heavy (97 lbs) and while it repelled bullets successfully, it did not prevent blunt force type injuries from the impacted metal.

This comparison (while Kelly's armor was of course more elaborate) would support that the iron addition to the crocodile hide in our discussion piece was not likely for bullet proofing.

Returning to the cult regalia concept, in earlier times, there were a number of 'societies' which were basically warrior groups and politico-social organizations. One of the most notorious were the 'leopard hunter group.
While much of the activity had focused on the superstitions and traditions of the folk religions and magic and metaphysical beliefs, by about the 1870s, more nefarious dynamics had perpetuated into off shoot groups, one of which was the 'Neegee' cult (neegee, Bassa word =crocdile) . The leopard hunters had devolved into the leopard men cult.
To the traditional societies, these cults were evil and feared.

The belief in magic was profound, and it was believed that certain persons were shape shifters who were able to change into certain formidable animals, such as the leopard and the crocodile. ...and that these persons would lie in wait in the wilds and mimick the character and killing style of the chosen animal in attacking their victims.

With the leopard cult the member would wear a leopard mask, drape themselves in leopard skins and use wicked claws fashioned of steel, even steel toothed mouthpieces.

While the apparel/ regalia of the leopard men is described, that of the apparently more secret and more despised crocodile group , I have not found such detail.

It would seem that these 'crocodile' men would also follow this pattern, but the crocodile hide itself would be cumbersome, even without the iron cladding, so would seem impractical for these nocturnal 'hunts.
It would seem more likely that perhaps this item may have been for a priest or official in less dynamic circumstances such as ritual or meetings.

[fernando]

Dear Jim, from your previous thread i give account that the one fresh approach is the Ned Kelly saga. May i suggest that his gang shielding apparatuses have by no means any linkage to the implement under discussion; not in form, nor in resistence, neither in means. We can't establish the minimum comparison bewteen a 1/4" thick (tempered) plough comonents and a thin bent sheet of soft iron, circa four times thinner.
I would end by saying that, while Ned's and his pack adventure has proven pathetic, Panoleon's item still has an unproven explanation .

Yours humbly

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by fernando

Panoleon's item still has an unproven explanation .

Can we agree on the following points:

1/ Crocodile armours exist
2/ Crocodile armours exist all over the world and they are not specific to Africa
3/ Crocodile armour or cuirasses are made of animal skin and not reinforced with iron breast plates
4/ The construction techniques of Panoleon's item look European
5/ Panoleon's item is from the 20th c.

[fernando]

In context, what misses an explanation is why, by whom and what this thing was made for.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by fernando

In context, what misses an explanation is why, by whom and what this thing was made for.

Correct, but these information's are subjective.

On one side, we have the objective information's, physical descriptions and facts.

On the other side, we can try to guess by whom and why, but to do this, we need elements of comparison in books and museums...

Without these data, any explanation will be a lovely story, but no more.

[fernando]

I gather that explanations are not subjective, but objective . Maybe no conclusion will ever come out, who knows. Until then, this has been fun; constructive+cultural discussions have been taking place, which is great .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Dear Jim, from your previous thread i give account that the one fresh approach is the Ned Kelly saga. May i suggest that his gang shielding apparatuses have by no means any linkage to the implement under discussion; not in form, nor in resistence, neither in means. We can't establish the minimum comparison bewteen a 1/4" thick (tempered) plough comonents and a thin bent sheet of soft iron, circa four times thinner.
I would end by saying that, while Ned's and his pack adventure has proven pathetic, Panoleon's item still has an unproven explanation .

Yours humbly

Of course it remains unexplained, and as you have apparently agreed with the point I was making by using this comparison (also regarded as an analogy, which means it is NOT directly related to the item or subject being examined).
My intent was to actually dismantle my own previous suggestion that perhaps this liner of iron was for bullet proofing, by showing that iron plate adequate for protection was probably much heavier (as this comparison illustrates).

So as you note this 'comparison' does not serve as an explanation, but is objectively disqualifying toward a subjective suggestion I had previously made, thus eliminated from the ongoing discussion. I very much agree, this discussion as been fun, and very informative....I know Im learning a lot.
As Kubur has well noted, comparisons are essential, and Colin's suggestion of Pitt Rivers is well placed.

[fernando]

Well Jim, i wouldn't be surprised if Napoleon's item turns out to be one of a kind, thus incomparable. OTOH, i would certainly subscribe Colin's suggestion. It sure is a good test; Panoleon willing to do it .

[fernando]

Panoleon, may i appologize for diverting but Jim, you are a Texas wanderer. Have you ever been in Waco, in a visit to the Texas Rangers museum ?
You sure remember the American (Ned Kelly) bullet proof 'home version' . Also a failure ... also a dramatic one .


.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Fernando,
Yup, Ive been there OK, and had forgotten this anomaly.
In further thinking, one of the tangible theories which has been mentioned here, but gained no further traction, is Colin's suggestion that perhaps this was an old armor put onto an iron display setup.

Without further evidence of such apparatus (a good descriptive word Fernando)being actually worn, this seems a viable theory which is tenable as a reasonable explanation.

In museums I have seen excavated swords and relics which were displayed mounted on clear plastic casing to fill in for the missing elements.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In further thinking, one of the tangible theories which has been mentioned here, but gained no further traction, is Colin's suggestion that perhaps this was an old armor put onto an iron display setup...

Making me remember #10:

Originally Posted by fernando

... Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?...