Curious marriage: a Kard

Gonzoadler · 6th March 2021, 08:05 PM

Hello,

I'm also largely agree with your comments. Of course we can't clarify every detail of the history of my dagger but ariel constructed a plausible version. The hilt looks still caucasian to me because of the papakha.
Yes, the scabbard would be a very good replacement part for a central asian Bichak, but I dont have any

Saracen · 8th March 2021, 12:59 AM

For me, this is an absolutely Ottoman scabbard made by a master from Dagestan. After the annexation of the territories of the North Caucasus to the Russian Empire in 1865 and before the start of the First World War, the Islamic population of the North Caucasus actively migrated to the Ottoman Empire. This migration was much more massive and prolonged than the migration to Central Asia and received the name "Caucasian muhajirism".
The narrow form of the scabbard and, especially, the absolutely Ottoman form of the end of the scabbard tell me that the Ottoman bichaq lived in them, and not the Central Asian pchak.

Saracen · 8th March 2021, 01:05 AM

... or Ottoman Kard

ariel · 8th March 2021, 03:08 PM

Agree.
It raises yet another digression. South Georgia and Northern Anatolia had a signigicant number of islamized Georgians ( besides Lazes), the so -called Meskheti Turks. In 1944 more than 100,000 of them were expelled to Central Asia to prevent their potential (!) espionage, collaboration with the Turks and other anti-Soviet activities. In general, the usual Soviet paranoia about “disloyal nations”. Likely there were a few jewelers among them:-). In that case the scabbard could date from 1950s or even later.

That might be the reason why Kwiatek found translation strangely “Caucasian”.

I wonder whether the origins of the peculiar throat of the scabbard might be found in the construction of local knives. Otherwise, I have difficulty to imagine how the entire thing functioned: there must have been an uncovered upper part of the edge. 50:50 chance that every time the owner tried to pull the kard/bichak ( ?) out he needed a Band-Aid:-)

mahratt · 8th March 2021, 04:30 PM

It would be interesting to see a Ottoman knife in a scabbard of the same decor. Unfortunately, I am not aware of such samples. But, probably, Ariel and Saracen will demonstrate such items.

In the 1940s, in the republics of Soviet Central Asia did not make knives in silver sheaths. The tradition of making elements of national knives in Central Asia from silver ended at the end of the 1920s.

Of course the inscription is "strangely Caucasian". As I wrote earlier, similar scabbards in Central Asia were made by masters who moved from the Caucasus to Bukhara and Khiva.

I don't understand why these fantasies about the Meskhetian Turks are needed? Information that Caucasian jewelers worked in the late 19th - early 20th centuries in the khanates of Central Asia is in scientific sources. Information about the mythical "jewelers of the Meskhetian Turks" - Mr. Ariel's fantasies, which are not confirmed by any facts.

Saracen · 8th March 2021, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I wonder whether the origins of the peculiar throat of the scabbard might be found in the construction of local knives.

In the construction of the solid silver scabbards yataghan, Ottoman kard and bichaq. A removable the peculiar throat of the scabbard is needed to install wooden inserts in the scabbard.

mahratt · 9th March 2021, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saracen

In the construction of the solid silver scabbards yataghan, Ottoman kard and bichaq. A removable the peculiar throat of the scabbard is needed to install wooden inserts in the scabbard.

It is not clear why post a photo of this Ottoman knife in the subject. His scabbard has no resemblance to the scabbard of the item in question ...

ariel · 9th March 2021, 07:29 AM

I would like to stress again that Saracen, IMXO, hit the nail on the head: the tip of Gonzoadler’s scabbard is purely Turkish. The so-called “ Meskhetian Turks” call themselves simply Turks. They acquired an addition. ” Meskheonly after they were deported ( second time!) from Uzbekistan to asouthern Russia in 1989; they were never allowed to return to their homes in Samtskhe-Javakheti that was shared between Georgia ( in fact Russia) and Turkey. Let’s not forget that the area in question was a major center for cold weapon production and decoratinos: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki. BTW, legendary ( at least in Russia)mineral water Borjomi is from the same area, as was a creator of Georgian national epic poem “The knight in the tiger skin” Shota Rustaveli ( from Rustavi, ancient center of forging iron objects).
It would be difficult to imagine that there were no locals bladesmiths and jewelers among the 100,000+ Turks exiled to Central Asia in 944.Some sources mention that the greatest Georgian swordmaker Geurk Elizarov came to Tiflis from Akhatsikhe.
Nobody argues that there were Georgian itinerant masters in Central Asia at nthe end of 19th century, and had Mahratt been a bit more attentive to what was actually written by me, he would have understood that I was only raising a possibility of dating the scabbard in question to the second half of the 20th century, no more. The origin of the assertion that the Central Asian use of silver stopped in the 1920s is akin to the one that the use of brass was started by the Afghanis in 1900.Georgian masters were and still are using silver for their souvenir shashkas and kindjals non stop till now.
I was intrigued by the pics of Central Asian daggers on the wall carpet, especially by the rightmost one having the same throat. Any verifiable dating of them?

Kubur · 9th March 2021, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saracen

In the construction of the solid silver scabbards yataghan, Ottoman kard and bichaq. A removable the peculiar throat of the scabbard is needed to install wooden inserts in the scabbard.

I understand very well what Saracen has in mind.

Saracen, the throat is called the locket and it is common in most of scabbards in the world.

These two Indian karuds have the same system and a curved tip/chape.

Problem, they are not Ottoman daggers!

Saracen · 9th March 2021, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I understand very well what Saracen has in mind.

Saracen, the throat is called the locket and it is common in most of scabbards in the world.

These two Indian karuds have the same system and a curved tip/chape.

Problem, they are not Ottoman daggers!

Thank you Kubur, correct English terminology is very important for me now.
But I'm talking specifically about the all-metal Ottoman scabbard and not about any others.
A removable locket in an all-metal Ottoman scabbard is needed in order to insert wooden inserts into them, which hold the blade inside.
On the discussed scabbard, the locket is made separately in the same Ottoman tradition, I think this also confirms their Ottoman origin.
Only here the Lak master had a problem: for the Lak style engraving , thick silver was needed and the locket had to be fastened butt-to-butt, not overlap.
I have not seen the removable locket on the all-metal scabbard of the Central Asian pchak. In addition, the scabbard of the Central Asian pchak is much wider and more massive.
The scabbard in question is narrow and elegant, in Ottoman style. Definitely this is an Ottoman scabbard.

ariel · 9th March 2021, 03:01 PM

Kubur,
You are absolutely correct: your example is Indian.
But both Saracen and I are talking about about 2 other things: the tip of the scabbard tilting up , reminescent of the Turkish yataghan “ dolphin” and the locket with asymmetric opening ( throat).
Meskhetian Turks self-identify as simply Turks: their language is Kars Turkish dialect, they follow Turkish customs etc. The word “ Meskhetian” was added only after 1989, after Soviet authorities exiled them from Uzbekistan to Southern Russia and Ukraine. Samtskhe -Javakheti was Ottoman most of the time, and was divided between Georgia ( Russia, in fact) and the Ottoman Empire only in the 19 century. This region was always a weapon -producing center: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki were the hubs ( see Astvatsaturyan).
Presence of itinerant Caucasian masters in Central Asia since at least late 1800s is well known.
But presence of at least few masters among more than 100,000 Georgian Turks exiled to Central Asia in 1944 is also likely. That was exactly my question about possible dating of Gonzoadler’s scabbard. Among the daggers shown earlier ( a group on the carpeted wall) the only one that interests me is the rightmost one: configuration of the throat ( opening of the scabbard) is identical to his one. Regretfully no proof of attribution or dating was provided.

The story of “Meskheti” Turks is tragic: their culture was utterly destroyed by the genocidal Soviet authorities and they are the only exiled ethnic group not allowed to return till today. See Ph.D dissertations of Hulya Dogan and Kathryn Tomlinson.
In modern Russia they are still hopelessly poor pariahs, not allowed to own property , vote or emigrate.Two consecutive exiles ( 1944 and 1989) robbed them of their belongings and history.
Studying their weapons is currently possible only in Turkey, where they enjoy full rights. That might be a priceless contribution by a professional weapon historian. One just needs to find such a person.

Gonzoadler · 11th March 2021, 08:54 PM

The meskethian daggers shown here have some similarities with mine. But here is an Indian dagger which has also a scabbard with a similar shape. There are differences but they are not really bigger.
One dagger mahratt has shown is not only similar in shape, it is also similar in style/decor. So I have to agree with him. It has a flower decor, a pearl-like decor at the mouth of the scabbard an these tetragonal fields (yes, in mahratts case with Lapis). Other examples are decorated with Niello, like mine.

What makes my Kard more meskhethian than uzbekh?

Regards

8th March 2021, 12:59 AM	#2
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	For me, this is an absolutely Ottoman scabbard made by a master from Dagestan. After the annexation of the territories of the North Caucasus to the Russian Empire in 1865 and before the start of the First World War, the Islamic population of the North Caucasus actively migrated to the Ottoman Empire. This migration was much more massive and prolonged than the migration to Central Asia and received the name "Caucasian muhajirism". The narrow form of the scabbard and, especially, the absolutely Ottoman form of the end of the scabbard tell me that the Ottoman bichaq lived in them, and not the Central Asian pchak. Attached Images

8th March 2021, 03:08 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree. It raises yet another digression. South Georgia and Northern Anatolia had a signigicant number of islamized Georgians ( besides Lazes), the so -called Meskheti Turks. In 1944 more than 100,000 of them were expelled to Central Asia to prevent their potential (!) espionage, collaboration with the Turks and other anti-Soviet activities. In general, the usual Soviet paranoia about “disloyal nations”. Likely there were a few jewelers among them:-). In that case the scabbard could date from 1950s or even later. That might be the reason why Kwiatek found translation strangely “Caucasian”. I wonder whether the origins of the peculiar throat of the scabbard might be found in the construction of local knives. Otherwise, I have difficulty to imagine how the entire thing functioned: there must have been an uncovered upper part of the edge. 50:50 chance that every time the owner tried to pull the kard/bichak ( ?) out he needed a Band-Aid:-) Last edited by ariel; 8th March 2021 at 05:06 PM.

8th March 2021, 04:30 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It would be interesting to see a Ottoman knife in a scabbard of the same decor. Unfortunately, I am not aware of such samples. But, probably, Ariel and Saracen will demonstrate such items. In the 1940s, in the republics of Soviet Central Asia did not make knives in silver sheaths. The tradition of making elements of national knives in Central Asia from silver ended at the end of the 1920s. Of course the inscription is "strangely Caucasian". As I wrote earlier, similar scabbards in Central Asia were made by masters who moved from the Caucasus to Bukhara and Khiva. I don't understand why these fantasies about the Meskhetian Turks are needed? Information that Caucasian jewelers worked in the late 19th - early 20th centuries in the khanates of Central Asia is in scientific sources. Information about the mythical "jewelers of the Meskhetian Turks" - Mr. Ariel's fantasies, which are not confirmed by any facts. Last edited by mahratt; 8th March 2021 at 05:08 PM.

11th March 2021, 08:54 PM	#12
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	The meskethian daggers shown here have some similarities with mine. But here is an Indian dagger which has also a scabbard with a similar shape. There are differences but they are not really bigger. One dagger mahratt has shown is not only similar in shape, it is also similar in style/decor. So I have to agree with him. It has a flower decor, a pearl-like decor at the mouth of the scabbard an these tetragonal fields (yes, in mahratts case with Lapis). Other examples are decorated with Niello, like mine. What makes my Kard more meskhethian than uzbekh? Regards Attached Images Last edited by Gonzoadler; 11th March 2021 at 10:00 PM.

6th March 2021, 08:05 PM	#1
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Hello, I'm also largely agree with your comments. Of course we can't clarify every detail of the history of my dagger but ariel constructed a plausible version. The hilt looks still caucasian to me because of the papakha. Yes, the scabbard would be a very good replacement part for a central asian Bichak, but I dont have any

8th March 2021, 01:05 AM	#3
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	... or Ottoman Kard

9th March 2021, 07:29 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would like to stress again that Saracen, IMXO, hit the nail on the head: the tip of Gonzoadler’s scabbard is purely Turkish. The so-called “ Meskhetian Turks” call themselves simply Turks. They acquired an addition. ” Meskheonly after they were deported ( second time!) from Uzbekistan to asouthern Russia in 1989; they were never allowed to return to their homes in Samtskhe-Javakheti that was shared between Georgia ( in fact Russia) and Turkey. Let’s not forget that the area in question was a major center for cold weapon production and decoratinos: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki. BTW, legendary ( at least in Russia)mineral water Borjomi is from the same area, as was a creator of Georgian national epic poem “The knight in the tiger skin” Shota Rustaveli ( from Rustavi, ancient center of forging iron objects). It would be difficult to imagine that there were no locals bladesmiths and jewelers among the 100,000+ Turks exiled to Central Asia in 944.Some sources mention that the greatest Georgian swordmaker Geurk Elizarov came to Tiflis from Akhatsikhe. Nobody argues that there were Georgian itinerant masters in Central Asia at nthe end of 19th century, and had Mahratt been a bit more attentive to what was actually written by me, he would have understood that I was only raising a possibility of dating the scabbard in question to the second half of the 20th century, no more. The origin of the assertion that the Central Asian use of silver stopped in the 1920s is akin to the one that the use of brass was started by the Afghanis in 1900.Georgian masters were and still are using silver for their souvenir shashkas and kindjals non stop till now. I was intrigued by the pics of Central Asian daggers on the wall carpet, especially by the rightmost one having the same throat. Any verifiable dating of them?

9th March 2021, 03:01 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, You are absolutely correct: your example is Indian. But both Saracen and I are talking about about 2 other things: the tip of the scabbard tilting up , reminescent of the Turkish yataghan “ dolphin” and the locket with asymmetric opening ( throat). Meskhetian Turks self-identify as simply Turks: their language is Kars Turkish dialect, they follow Turkish customs etc. The word “ Meskhetian” was added only after 1989, after Soviet authorities exiled them from Uzbekistan to Southern Russia and Ukraine. Samtskhe -Javakheti was Ottoman most of the time, and was divided between Georgia ( Russia, in fact) and the Ottoman Empire only in the 19 century. This region was always a weapon -producing center: Akhaltsikhe and Akhalkalaki were the hubs ( see Astvatsaturyan). Presence of itinerant Caucasian masters in Central Asia since at least late 1800s is well known. But presence of at least few masters among more than 100,000 Georgian Turks exiled to Central Asia in 1944 is also likely. That was exactly my question about possible dating of Gonzoadler’s scabbard. Among the daggers shown earlier ( a group on the carpeted wall) the only one that interests me is the rightmost one: configuration of the throat ( opening of the scabbard) is identical to his one. Regretfully no proof of attribution or dating was provided. The story of “Meskheti” Turks is tragic: their culture was utterly destroyed by the genocidal Soviet authorities and they are the only exiled ethnic group not allowed to return till today. See Ph.D dissertations of Hulya Dogan and Kathryn Tomlinson. In modern Russia they are still hopelessly poor pariahs, not allowed to own property , vote or emigrate.Two consecutive exiles ( 1944 and 1989) robbed them of their belongings and history. Studying their weapons is currently possible only in Turkey, where they enjoy full rights. That might be a priceless contribution by a professional weapon historian. One just needs to find such a person.