African cuirass?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by drac2k

I am not knowledgeable in this area of collecting however I would like to make a couple of observations based on past experience.
First, the piece is well made and somewhat complex, and manufactured out of expensive materials. This armor would not be conducive for mass production for a movie prop(s), both in regards to the cost and assembly time. I have seen modern armor movie props and they are quite cheaply made.
Next, if this armor had been procured in the 1950s through the 1970s, it would have been much cheaper to obtain these pieces from a firm such as the now-defunct Bannermans which had these items en masse. I personally procured at auction several very fine authentic pieces in the 1980s(or 1990s), when a major motion picture studio deaccessioned hundreds of items.
I am only speaking from a layman's point of view and not from a scholarly knowledge of this field; plus I really like the item!

Well noted!!! I had not thought of the expense factor !!
A few years back I had a pair of 'gator' boots made,......eeeaaughh! and I got a good deal. This stuff is expensive!

Bannerman's stuff flooded the markets and in my opinion literally fueled the arms collecting phenomenon. The movie studio decaccession's, I knew guys who really cleaned up on this stuff back in the 80s.
Hollywood in the golden years did indeed use many authentic items of arms and armor. Actually the famed Rudolf Valentino ('The Sheik') became so intrigued by the swords he experienced in the sets,he became a bonified sword collector with the ones he admired most.

[fernando]

Can we take for certain that the 'nobility' of the outer part, croc hide and elaborated rosettes, has nothing to do with the inner iron lining? I have a problem in digesting that the original owner of this hide cuirass was the one who had the inside addition made. The time span between the two parts appears to be significant. Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?.
Panoleon, how come that you can't be sure that the rivets are leather ? Can you take a closer look ?

[Panoleon]

The rivets are made of brass. They remind me of rivets that are used for combining pieces of leather. See the picture of the rivets I mean below. I'll make some better pictures tomorrow for some more detail.

[Kubur]

Did you notice the two missing pieces and the kind of glue at the location of the missing pieces?
Are they the horses from Gladiator?
I wonder what was there...
It seems to have been circular, look at the marks in the leather...

Jim I wish to believe the African track, but this thing is too strange and as I said it doesnt make any sense. Some film prop are very well made.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I wonder what was there...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but my intuition tells me that there should be lead seals with protective spells in this place. Or with an inventory number and owner / arsenal name. Which is less likely.

[fernando]

Which would be the points fixing the hide to the inner part and those of the cuirass decoration ...


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Perhaps I'm wrong, but my intuition tells me that there should be lead seals with protective spells in this place. Or with an inventory number and owner / arsenal name. Which is less likely.

well noted!!! in a number of the statues and art relating to these armored men there seem to be attachments of some kind. There were often amulets in the form of written invocations etc. in small containers attached in strategic places.

[Duccio]

At the British Museum there is a crocodile skin "cuirass", apparently used for cult purposes rather than for war, dating back to the Roman domination of Egypt (about 300 AD).

https://britishmuseum.withgoogle.com...suit-of-armour

[fernando]

That would be the item you find in a zillion sources when googling on the subject. But doesn't seem to be one to help defining the the apparatus being discussed.

[Panoleon]

Thanks for al the reactions. I have made some detail pictures.
The model of the rivets don't look extremely old. I dont know when this type of rivets got in to use.
@ Kubur. Indeed. It looks like two round pieces are missing. Maybe some sort of atachment for leather slings to carry the cuirass. The grey stuff isn't glue, its some sort of molten metal. Probably lead.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Panoleon

@ Kubur. Indeed. It looks like two round pieces are missing. Maybe some sort of atachment for leather slings to carry the cuirass. The grey stuff isn't glue, its some sort of molten metal. Probably lead.

I don't think that the missing round pieces were for attachment, they are too low and studs are placed above and will disturb any leather slings.

Have you seen the cross in the middle (studs) maybe it's a Christian thing...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't think that the missing round pieces were for attachment, they are too low and studs are placed above and will disturb any leather slings...

Tht's a good reasoning; but whatever devices they were, and for whatever reason, the owner found them dispensable. A riddle by itself.

[Will M]

This could be a prop from many years ago. I would like to mention that the aged reproductions you can find for sale online that are expensive will fool even some of the most knowledgeable collectors. This is just an example of how aged reproductions can appear: https://www.warhats.com/u-boat-caps.html#/

[Richard G]

This is not all that helpful, but seems to suggest crocodile skin armours at least existed.
Regards
Richard
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/484770347390098508/

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Duccio

At the British Museum there is a crocodile skin "cuirass", apparently used for cult purposes rather than for war, dating back to the Roman domination of Egypt (about 300 AD).

https://britishmuseum.withgoogle.com...suit-of-armour

This is exactly the circumstance I was referring to, 'cults' , These cults remained quite active well into the 20th century.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Can we take for certain that the 'nobility' of the outer part, croc hide and elaborated rosettes, has nothing to do with the inner iron lining? I have a problem in digesting that the original owner of this hide cuirass was the one who had the inside addition made. The time span between the two parts appears to be significant. Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?.
Panoleon, how come that you can't be sure that the rivets are leather ? Can you take a closer look ?

Exactly. I had meant to suggest that by saying 'the traditional old armor ' implying that the animal hide as used in older armor, may have been modified to protect the wearer against the modern threat of firearms. Here I noted that the use of iron sheeting (as used by Ned Kelly in Australia) was known by the end of the 19th c. and that members of these cults (I called societies) may have 'upgraded' their traditional armor to 'bulletproof'?

In ethnographic cultural context, traditional old items are often refurbished n order for use as heirlooms in the traditional convention.
Yes, in native sense arms and armor are in a sense 'alive', however in the addition of material to continue the 'life' of the armor, why not use leather liner instead of this heavy, hot, and extremely uncomfortable shield...unless it was infeed meant to deflect bullets.

Blades on swords are known to exist in native spheres for not only generations, but centuries. One of the oldest blades I recall us finding in the Sahara was medieval, around 15th c. and had apparently been in circulation for probably several hundred years. These blades are traditionally rehilted as they pass down through either family or trade.

Kubur, it is indeed an unusual item, and your idea of a prop of some kind is of course possible. Here I would note that another item I was involved in researching was a leather armor of cataphract (scaled) form was found in Texas desert near El Paso in the 1890s by an army trooper. It was heralded as evidence of Spanish exploration in the area from 16th c. The item was known as a 'mantle' and worn over shoulders.
Subsequent research revealed that the item had possibly been a costume element with a theater troupe or ceremonial item perhaps from fraternal group regalia. While the item was of significant age, it was certainly not 16th c. and likely repurposed in later use as suggested.

[fernando]

Given all that has been said, and on a second (third) thought, i would start from square one ...
... In that a guy had a piece of croc hide and decided to make a cuirass with it; a mock one, as for purposes other than for combat. The iron sheet he used looks too thin to avoid bullet penetration; look at the foldings. On the other hand, the decorative rosettes were not original to the hide, or their beaten nails would not show up in the present interior.
It also looks as the iron shell was a piece of iron salvaged from previous purposes, as denounced by those vertical series of useless holes.
This would takes us to two options; a theatrical prop or, some native setup ... this for fun or symbolism purposes. I would chose the indigenous setup, simply because i wouldn't see a prop maker getting hold of such old and fragilized piece of skin for modern purposes; after a couple takes in action, all those scales would crack and fall apart.
I bet you guys find this a feeble approach; but just don't tie me to the whipping post .


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[Panoleon]

No provenance, unfortunately.

The cuirass is actualy quite heavy. The arrows are pointing to a leather piece. Not the folded ends of the iron.

I'm happy with al your reactions. It's a remarkable piece and I have learned a lot!

[fernando]

So ... how heavy is it, Panoleon ?

[Panoleon]

Originally Posted by fernando

So ... how heavy is it, Panoleon ?

2,2 kg.

[Jim McDougall]

Hmmmm,
I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa, one that comes to mind is the 'Crocodile guild'. There are others known as 'Leopard hunters' etc. who used the scaly anteater (pangolin) hide, however they wore crocodile hide helmets, so the use of crocodile hide is quite possible, if not likely (as per Spring, op.cit. noting variations of materials used).

Whether bullet proof or not, natives tended to believe something would be bullet proof if the 'magic' afforded it was intended to make it so. Examples are the war shirts emblazoned with symbols worn by American Indians, amulets used in the Sudan with the jibbahs worn etc. Native peoples were not necessarily well informed in the dynamics and ballistics of firearms, but were inclined to follow more the word of their shamans, medicine men etc.

To take an old cuirass, bolster it with iron for structure and protection from bullets to me, makes sense. This especially if within the protocols, ritual and regalia of thee West African warrior societies.

As for diplomatic gifts, it has been my understanding that such items were notable quality examples representing the culture of the presenter, not imitations of those they are giving it to.

The cross, as I had previously noted, was a commonly applied device from the Portuguese presence in West Africa, and adopted by the native people as a significant symbol of power or magic. It seems this became a well used element in West African material culture.

The use of European components simply reflects the influence, which was of course well established there.

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?

The cueera (leather cuirass I mentioned earlier) made in New Mexico, by Pueblo artisans for the Spaniards, was fashioned using the long obsolete (in Europe) cuir bouilli process and styled in an ancient classical fashion of Rome.

The 'recyclng' and repurposng of materials is well known in Africa, in Sudan and other regions sword blades are made of old truck springs. Old coffee tins and misc. products are found in all types of native made items.
I still recall the Sudanese helmets embellished with forks and spoons .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa...

Here you beat me, Jim; esoterica falls out of my jurisdiction .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.. bullet proof or not, natives tended to believe something would be bullet proof if the 'magic' afforded it was intended to make it so...

Perhaps those under such influence wouldn't even need to armour the cuirass with iron in the first place ? .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.. peoples were not necessarily well informed in the dynamics and ballistics of firearms, but were inclined to follow more the word of their shamans, medicine men etc...

A bit of a reducive approach, i am afraid.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...To take an old cuirass, bolster it with iron for structure and protection from bullets to me, makes sense...

You mean taking an old reptile skin, not a cuirass; we don't know if it was already an armour implement before the present assembly, do we ?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

. The cross, as I had previously noted, was a commonly applied device from the Portuguese presence in West Africa, and adopted by the native people as a significant symbol of power or magic. It seems this became a well used element in West African material culture...

More precisely, managing to christianize their kings, giving them diplomatic gifts (quoting you) which in such way became symbols of power, although not easily accessible to their subjects. But that is another story.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...the use of European components simply reflects the influence, which was of course well established there.

Like saying that this discussed cuirass shape follows European patterns ? could well be.
For your archives i will here upload a rare XV century breastplate, with the Cross of Christ embossed (collection Rainer Dahenhardt).

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?

You got me wrong, Jim; my bad english fault. My understanding places both croc hide and the hard chest piece in the same environment.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

.The 'recyclng' and repurposng of materials is well known in Africa, in Sudan and other regions sword blades are made of old truck springs.

Like in other continents; comes to mind cangaceiros (and not only) swords made of truck springs in Brazil.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I still recall the Sudanese helmets embellished with forks and spoons .

Yet Panoleon cuirass shows us an austere posture.


Yours faithful.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Here you beat me, Jim; esoterica falls out of my jurisdiction .


Perhaps those under such influence wouldn't even need to armour the cuirass with iron in the first place ? .


A bit of a reducive approach, i am afraid.


You mean taking an old reptile skin, not a cuirass; we don't know if it was already an armour implement before the present assembly, do we ?


More precisely, managing to christianize their kings, giving them diplomatic gifts (quoting you) which in such way became symbols of power, although not easily accessible to their subjects. But that is another story.


Like saying that this discussed cuirass shape follows European patterns ? could well be.
For your archives i will here upload a rare XV century breastplate, with the Cross of Christ embossed (collection Rainer Dahenhardt).


You got me wrong, Jim; my bad english fault. My understanding places both croc hide and the hard chest piece in the same environment.


Like in other continents; comes to mind cangaceiros (and not only) swords made of truck springs in Brazil.


Yet Panoleon cuirass shows us an austere posture


Yours faithful.


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Excellent redaction of my synopsis Fernando !!!

Looking into the esoterica of symbolism in the study of ethnographic arms and armor is pretty essential to help identiify and classify items which are not neatly categorized in the usual references.
It is rather like the study of Masonic swords and regalia in the 'Western' sense. Personally I find it one of most fascinating aspects of research, and I guess that evolved from the study of markings and inscriptions in sword blades over many years.
Actually, you helped me many times with numbers of those.

It is quite true that if a native warrior was sufficiently convinced of the apotropaic potential of the talismanically imbued armor (actually reptilian hide fashioned into a cuirass possibly European influenced in form)...the iron shield would be redundant.
However, even tradition bound to wear the armor which has been faithfully worn in the earlier years of these societies, it would not be surprising to see the use of the iron under shield pragmatically , given the more modern dynamics of firearms.

While it is true that this metal would not deflect a bullet of high velocity, it must be remembered that in the 19th century, black powder rounds were of low velocity. In many instances, rounds barely penetrated the target owing to many circumstances, quality and condition of powder, improper loading etc.
Getting into the debate on these ballistics issues of the effectiveness of these firearms used in these regions in the 19th century is beyond the scope of this discussion, but certainly pertinent with respect to my observation.

One analogy I would add however, was the case of an American Indian chief in Texas territory in 19th c. known as Chief Iron Shirt. He apparently wore either a cuirass remnant or perhaps mail from an earlier Spanish explorer, and the warriors believed he was magic and impervious to bullets, as they literally bounced off of him.
His luck ran out one day when a sharpshooter's round entered his body through an exposed spot from likely an upraised arm.

That said, whether the natives who wore these types of armor believed the assurances of metaphysics or took the pragmatic approach would be a matter of considerable speculation in qualifying, so my comment was perhaps too broadly noted.

The presence of the Christian cross is simply noted to recognize the West African likelihood of the European styled 'cuirass' (made from reptile hide) as seen often in their material culture there. This feature is also seen in the stylized interpretations of European swords with these on the quillon terminals (usually regarded as Congolese but the influence was from Portuguese traders in West Africa). It has been my understanding that these crosses were seen more in a magic or power sense than any sort of religious quantification.

Best
Jim

[colin henshaw]

Jim McDougall]Hmmmm,
I WONDER if this could be a kind of regalia for use by a member of one of the secretive guilds or societies known in West Africa, one that comes to mind is the 'Crocodile guild'. There are others known as 'Leopard hunters' etc. who used the scaly anteater (pangolin) hide, however they wore crocodile hide helmets, so the use of crocodile hide is quite possible, if not likely (as per Spring, op.cit. noting variations of materials used).

Jim's theory about Crocodile Secret Societies is certainly colourful and exotic, but given the likelihood the cuirass was put together in Europe, can probably be safely discounted (the rivets are particularly compelling).

As for diplomatic gifts, it has been my understanding that such items were notable quality examples representing the culture of the presenter, not imitations of those they are giving it to.

Far from it, gifts would often be cheap and showy. An example I have to hand is from the intrepid American lady explorer who travelled in East Africa in the late 19th century, May French-Sheldon ... extracts from her book attached. Another example ... Sir Joseph Banks had brass replica Maori clubs "patu" made in 1772 for distribution to important natives in New Zealand. Image attached. However, it should be noted that for the coronation of King Archibong III of Calabar in 1878 his regalia was provided by Queen Victoria, so presumably of good quality ? Image attached.

Basically, why would anyone ship crocodile hide to Europe, to make a cuirass to send back to Africa?

Crocodile hides for making luggage, shoes etc, along with other animal skins, have long been an export item from Africa to Europe.


Considering again my first post of this thread, above ... perhaps a third, less likely option should be added :-

Its simply an old hobbyist production using a Victorian copy breastplate - for hanging on the wall in some large house or for "dressing-up" (which was popular among the middle and upper classes in the 19th and early 20th century.

[Kubur]

I remind you gentlemen that all the stories above are grounded on nothing...

There is no proof that this armour is old nor African...





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[Will M]

It is an impressive looking piece. If used in actual combat, any opponent seeing it would believe it was just leather armour and would have been surprised when his sword or dagger failed to penetrate.