African cuirass?

[Kubur]

So you'll hate me, but please remember, that our forum is open to discussions. And we never know what we will get when we post an item.

This armour looks like a 1950ties or 1970ties film prop.

The forging technique doesn't look African, from the inside. The rivets don't look Africans. The leather on iron plate doesn't make any sense to me.

The bad condition is another thing, may be it was stored in a basement with a lot of humidity.

The only thing that I can see as African is the crocodile skin, or maybe an alligator's skin from Florida...

[Panoleon]

Thanks Kubur, ups and dows, thats how it goes.

[Panoleon]

Some more detail on the rivets. They look like leather rivets.
It's a well made piece for a film prop. The cuirass does show hammer marks.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

So you'll hate me, but please remember, that our forum is open to discussions. And we never know what we will get when we post an item.

This armour looks like a 1950ties or 1970ties film prop.

The forging technique doesn't look African, from the inside. The rivets don't look Africans. The leather on iron plate doesn't make any sense to me.

The bad condition is another thing, may be it was stored in a basement with a lot of humidity.

The only thing that I can see as African is the crocodile skin, or maybe an alligator's skin from Florida...

Not at all Kubur! You have always made most astute and valuable observations here, and your suggestion is of course a viable consideration.
In looking at this most unusual item, it does not correspond in many ways to the West African armor I have described, however, as Christopher Spring notes in "African Arms & Armor", there seems to have been of course a degree of variations in styles and materials.

I think it is worthwhile to think of what sort of a movie or theatrical subject this would apply to. This sort of armor does not look 'Roman' or other classical types and surely would not be regarded as 'medieval' as the mail armor further east in Nigeria, Bornu into Chad which was actually often authentic European product.

When considering reproductions or 'props', there are certain 'nuances' which really would not be regarded as necessary to carry off the kind of allusion which such staged elements were intended for.
This pertains of course to the cross emplaced among the ornamental studding. A prop would require only normal linear studding.

Then the case of the actual 'iron' material. The use of such iron 'armor' to repel bullets was well known in a kind of 'experimental' stage in the last quarter of the 19th century. In clearly distant cases (to this African context) in Australia for example was the notorious outlaw Ned Kelly, who fashioned an elaborate suit of armor which looked almost like a theatrical robot for this very purpose. In the Civil War, there were instances of steel plates worn under clothing (usually quickly discarded for weight and discomfort).

As I had mentioned, in West Africa there were groups of warrior men (there was at least one womans as well) which were considered 'secret societies'. Much as with the Masonic situation and Freemasonry, there were often elaborate rituals, regalia and other such elements of organized protocol.

These groups were often engaged in subversive activity given the colonial occupations, as well as certain intertribal warfare. The traditions of these groups called for magically imbued armor (such as the pangolin hide or crocodile/cayman) as had been used for almost centuries.

With the modern threat of firearms becoming a key factor, why wouldnt a tribesman wear the traditional armor cleverly cloaking the bullet proof iron?
As mention, this is why I suggest late 19th century, in the period when these kinds of bullet deterrents were being tried.

In analogy, I was once researching an unusual Spanish leather armor (cuera), which defied any possible resemblance to the known rawhide jackets of the 18th century soldados. It looked more like a Roman toga with tassets and more strangely, was boiled bull hide (cuir boulli as had been used in earlier centuries in Europe for such armor).
The museum authorities insisted this had nothing to do with such armor, and was actually a 'santo' costume, figures used in Catholic churches.
This however did not explain the pragmatic process of the cuir boulli.

What I discovered was that this was a type of cuera indiginous to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and had been produced there during the Pueblo uprisings of 1690s. It had been found in a storage unit in Arizona after having been in it for decades. It was described as 'old Spanish leather armor', which of course was a stretch as it did not correspond to any such form known.

However, the break through was when an old painting (known as the Segesser) was discovered in Switzerland. The painting was by Indian artists (many Peublo were loyal to the Spaniards) from c. 1715. It was of an obscure and little known battle in Nebraska of Spaniards vs. French and Pawnee. In this, the Indian guides with the Spaniards were wearing THESE UNUSUAL CUERA!
The form had never been included in material on Spanish colonial arms as this painting, the only visual reference to it, had been sent to Switzerland by a Jesuit priest during their expulsion in 1770s. The painting was not found and recovered to New Mexico until 1980s. long after the references on Spanish arms had been produced.

Here I would submit, variations and curiosities cannot always be relegated to lesser context by absence of inclusion in references. The 'secret societies'of Africa, like these kinds of groups in many cultures etc. are often a kind of 'X factor' in studying certain types of anomalies in various fields.

[drac2k]

I am not knowledgeable in this area of collecting however I would like to make a couple of observations based on past experience.
First, the piece is well made and somewhat complex, and manufactured out of expensive materials. This armor would not be conducive for mass production for a movie prop(s), both in regards to the cost and assembly time. I have seen modern armor movie props and they are quite cheaply made.
Next, if this armor had been procured in the 1950s through the 1970s, it would have been much cheaper to obtain these pieces from a firm such as the now-defunct Bannermans which had these items en masse. I personally procured at auction several very fine authentic pieces in the 1980s(or 1990s), when a major motion picture studio deaccessioned hundreds of items.
I am only speaking from a layman's point of view and not from a scholarly knowledge of this field; plus I really like the item!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by drac2k

I am not knowledgeable in this area of collecting however I would like to make a couple of observations based on past experience.
First, the piece is well made and somewhat complex, and manufactured out of expensive materials. This armor would not be conducive for mass production for a movie prop(s), both in regards to the cost and assembly time. I have seen modern armor movie props and they are quite cheaply made.
Next, if this armor had been procured in the 1950s through the 1970s, it would have been much cheaper to obtain these pieces from a firm such as the now-defunct Bannermans which had these items en masse. I personally procured at auction several very fine authentic pieces in the 1980s(or 1990s), when a major motion picture studio deaccessioned hundreds of items.
I am only speaking from a layman's point of view and not from a scholarly knowledge of this field; plus I really like the item!

Well noted!!! I had not thought of the expense factor !!
A few years back I had a pair of 'gator' boots made,......eeeaaughh! and I got a good deal. This stuff is expensive!

Bannerman's stuff flooded the markets and in my opinion literally fueled the arms collecting phenomenon. The movie studio decaccession's, I knew guys who really cleaned up on this stuff back in the 80s.
Hollywood in the golden years did indeed use many authentic items of arms and armor. Actually the famed Rudolf Valentino ('The Sheik') became so intrigued by the swords he experienced in the sets,he became a bonified sword collector with the ones he admired most.

[fernando]

Can we take for certain that the 'nobility' of the outer part, croc hide and elaborated rosettes, has nothing to do with the inner iron lining? I have a problem in digesting that the original owner of this hide cuirass was the one who had the inside addition made. The time span between the two parts appears to be significant. Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?.
Panoleon, how come that you can't be sure that the rivets are leather ? Can you take a closer look ?

[Panoleon]

The rivets are made of brass. They remind me of rivets that are used for combining pieces of leather. See the picture of the rivets I mean below. I'll make some better pictures tomorrow for some more detail.

[Kubur]

Did you notice the two missing pieces and the kind of glue at the location of the missing pieces?
Are they the horses from Gladiator?
I wonder what was there...
It seems to have been circular, look at the marks in the leather...

Jim I wish to believe the African track, but this thing is too strange and as I said it doesnt make any sense. Some film prop are very well made.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I wonder what was there...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but my intuition tells me that there should be lead seals with protective spells in this place. Or with an inventory number and owner / arsenal name. Which is less likely.

[Duccio]

At the British Museum there is a crocodile skin "cuirass", apparently used for cult purposes rather than for war, dating back to the Roman domination of Egypt (about 300 AD).

https://britishmuseum.withgoogle.com...suit-of-armour

[fernando]

That would be the item you find in a zillion sources when googling on the subject. But doesn't seem to be one to help defining the the apparatus being discussed.

[Panoleon]

Thanks for al the reactions. I have made some detail pictures.
The model of the rivets don't look extremely old. I dont know when this type of rivets got in to use.
@ Kubur. Indeed. It looks like two round pieces are missing. Maybe some sort of atachment for leather slings to carry the cuirass. The grey stuff isn't glue, its some sort of molten metal. Probably lead.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Duccio

At the British Museum there is a crocodile skin "cuirass", apparently used for cult purposes rather than for war, dating back to the Roman domination of Egypt (about 300 AD).

https://britishmuseum.withgoogle.com...suit-of-armour

This is exactly the circumstance I was referring to, 'cults' , These cults remained quite active well into the 20th century.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Can we take for certain that the 'nobility' of the outer part, croc hide and elaborated rosettes, has nothing to do with the inner iron lining? I have a problem in digesting that the original owner of this hide cuirass was the one who had the inside addition made. The time span between the two parts appears to be significant. Or could it be that someone else, in the greatest of fantasies, had the iron part made in order to prop up the historic hide and keep the cuirass upright and 'alive' ?.
Panoleon, how come that you can't be sure that the rivets are leather ? Can you take a closer look ?

Exactly. I had meant to suggest that by saying 'the traditional old armor ' implying that the animal hide as used in older armor, may have been modified to protect the wearer against the modern threat of firearms. Here I noted that the use of iron sheeting (as used by Ned Kelly in Australia) was known by the end of the 19th c. and that members of these cults (I called societies) may have 'upgraded' their traditional armor to 'bulletproof'?

In ethnographic cultural context, traditional old items are often refurbished n order for use as heirlooms in the traditional convention.
Yes, in native sense arms and armor are in a sense 'alive', however in the addition of material to continue the 'life' of the armor, why not use leather liner instead of this heavy, hot, and extremely uncomfortable shield...unless it was infeed meant to deflect bullets.

Blades on swords are known to exist in native spheres for not only generations, but centuries. One of the oldest blades I recall us finding in the Sahara was medieval, around 15th c. and had apparently been in circulation for probably several hundred years. These blades are traditionally rehilted as they pass down through either family or trade.

Kubur, it is indeed an unusual item, and your idea of a prop of some kind is of course possible. Here I would note that another item I was involved in researching was a leather armor of cataphract (scaled) form was found in Texas desert near El Paso in the 1890s by an army trooper. It was heralded as evidence of Spanish exploration in the area from 16th c. The item was known as a 'mantle' and worn over shoulders.
Subsequent research revealed that the item had possibly been a costume element with a theater troupe or ceremonial item perhaps from fraternal group regalia. While the item was of significant age, it was certainly not 16th c. and likely repurposed in later use as suggested.

[fernando]

Given all that has been said, and on a second (third) thought, i would start from square one ...
... In that a guy had a piece of croc hide and decided to make a cuirass with it; a mock one, as for purposes other than for combat. The iron sheet he used looks too thin to avoid bullet penetration; look at the foldings. On the other hand, the decorative rosettes were not original to the hide, or their beaten nails would not show up in the present interior.
It also looks as the iron shell was a piece of iron salvaged from previous purposes, as denounced by those vertical series of useless holes.
This would takes us to two options; a theatrical prop or, some native setup ... this for fun or symbolism purposes. I would chose the indigenous setup, simply because i wouldn't see a prop maker getting hold of such old and fragilized piece of skin for modern purposes; after a couple takes in action, all those scales would crack and fall apart.
I bet you guys find this a feeble approach; but just don't tie me to the whipping post .


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