African sword, Unusual Handle, Akokonan? or?

shayde78 · 26th February 2021, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

Duccio sorry if I jumped to conclusions. It is not possible to tell if a comment is intended as a joke.. Thank you for clarifying. And for Sharing the Proverb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duccio

No problem, I'm glad that everything is cleared up.
Believe me, I take these objects and those who manufacture them very seriously, but sometimes I feel frustrated, to verify the depth of my ignorance ... and then I cheer myself up with a joke ...
Best wishes.

For what it is worth, I wanted to commend you both for taking the time to 1) address a perceived insult (not always easy to do), 2) respond to the person who felt they were being disrespected (also not always easy to do, 3) doing all this in a respectful manner, and 4) being willing to hear the other person's side of things and come to a resolution. It doesn't always happen, and I felt compelled to acknowledge that the two of you did it well. This is the kind of discourse I have come to expect from this forum (and seems increasingly rare elsewhere), but I never want to take it for granted, so well done to both of you.

JoeCanada42 · 27th February 2021, 04:20 PM

shayde 78 thank you for the commendations, this forum has class, I will try not to mess it up too much,

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2021, 10:59 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=dongola

As I had mentioned on the thread linked, the shape of this blade brings to mind Dongola in the Sudan along the Nile. The highly stylized hilt recalls certain anthromorphic swords and weapons to the south, especially in Congo regions. Many of the 'throwing knives' of these areas and into Sudan have these kinds of dramatically stylized shapes, and while many are indeed weapons used as intended, many African weapons are highly symbolic for ceremonial, status and ritual purposes.

With this blade shape, this is clearly not a 'throwing knife', which as noted have these elaborate shapes, its use in status or official bearing seems possible.

Joe, I very much like your ratiocination and thank you for sharing your notes and sketches!!! I knew I had seen this before somewhere, so thanks for bringing it back up, I'd like to get it figured out.

On the 'editoral' notes, guys, nicely handled at keeping the P.C. beast in check. It is hard when we are expressing things anecdotally or in such mediums as in these public venues things can easily be taken wrong.

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2021, 12:11 AM

Just to add more comparative thought, I cannot resist thinking of the so called 'antenna swords' of the late Bronze age Hallstadt culture, these attached are 10th c. BC found near Swiss lake Neuchatel.
Obviously, aside from using von Daniken thinking, it would be beyond tenuous to associate this weapon to these with the chronological and anthropological disparities. However, the similarities are notable.

With my note on the Dongola type blade, here is an example from a collection (c. 1998). Note the crocodile piercing in blade (I have seen another with this feature) and the curious bar across the pommel end of grip. This is mindful of various European forms of baselard from medieval into Renaissance times.

We know that a number of African weapons seem to have evolved atavistically from probably iconographic sources, and it is possible this might be the case, in much the same manner of the baselard type elements.

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2021, 03:46 PM

In continuing reading through resources seeking more information on the possibilities for this sword (orig. post) , the chapter "The Shining Mystery: Throwing Knives of Africa" in "African Arms and Armour" (Christopher Spring, 1993) is most telling.

In this, the nature of these curious and often wildly varying type of weapon is explained, from the often fanciful presumptions described by some Victorian authors, to the more reasonable awareness of their uses in other capacities .

Pitt Rivers, the brilliant anthropologist wrote on these in 1875, and in 1925 Emil Torday wrote on these multibladed 'knives' from the perspectives of the Kuba( Bushong) people.

In 1872, Nachtigal narrated that these types of weapons were largely 'throwing irons' used as a means of exchange, that is currency. This appears to have been the case in numerous tribal societies in these African regions.
In 1925, Thomas prepared a chart trying to classify the various forms.
This seemed to delineate them basically in a northern and southern category with variations in the blade arrangements.

The reason for this foray into the mystery of these 'throwing irons' is that the geometric pattern in this hilt seems quite possibly to be a kind of symmetric arrangement of these weapons, coupled with the type of actual blade used in Dongola.

As we know 'throwing knives' were used in Darfur and Kordofan, mostly in the status and official sense symbolically, it seems this might be some sort of diplomatic example, combining both weapon and the currency or exchange character of the 'shongo' to the south. Here I would note that the Darfur regions were highly active in slaving, which would possibly use this kind of 'exchange' currency, although it would not explain the 'Dongola' type blade, unless such activity incorporated those regions as well.

Just thoughts on the possibilities of 'throwing knife' characteristics as seen on this sword and why they might have been applied to a blade of possible Dongola style.

JoeCanada42 · 28th February 2021, 06:58 PM

Thanks again Jim , I like the idea of the occurrence of an atavistically inspired weapon.
Thanks for all the great info and photos also . I find the large round form in the center of the grip of some Celtic swords interesting.
maybe Von daniken and aliens don't need to be invoked.
I don't think we know that much anthropologically about the Celts
weren't there Celtic red hair mummies in Asia?
perhaps maybe in History cultures had a lot more dispersal and interaction.
Didn't the domestic chicken come from the east. and Europe was the last place to get chicken farming. following my interest in the rooster/chicken as the inspiration for weapons, I have found some weapons from India , And some from china.
I will post 2 photos soon, 1 sword has a symbol on the scabbard I am curious about.
also about my sword I would like to mention it is also essentially a two handed sword. I will try to get a picture also, I find the pictures say more than words. the sword design being symmetrical also makes it easy to change hands, as the grip is always facing the right way. the point of balance of the sword is 6 inches forward from the bottom grip. I find the bottom grip quite comfortable. I think this is a very functional design, and perhaps the handle may be older than the blade.

JoeCanada42 · 1st March 2021, 12:44 AM

I want to share some of my African research before I move on to the east.
I found the deity Shango of interest as he is associated with the rooster and lightning. I also find the rooster itself mentioned as a deity that shoots lightning. and I find lightning associated with meteorites. so called lightning iron.
I think Africa would have a greater occurrence of meteorites then most other locations. I also had notes somewhere that the Gibeon meteorite was used to make samurai swords in china circa 1838 by Yoshido.
Also Shango is said to have been a human king who burned down his own palace for various reasons... due to his lightning.
I find some similarity between my sword handle and this shango lightning symbol I will post below. Also i will post some Oshe wands, I do think the rooster influence and inspiration has much older origin than shango.

Jim McDougall · 2nd March 2021, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

Thanks again Jim , I like the idea of the occurrence of an atavistically inspired weapon.
Thanks for all the great info and photos also . I find the large round form in the center of the grip of some Celtic swords interesting.
maybe Von daniken and aliens don't need to be invoked.
I don't think we know that much anthropologically about the Celts
weren't there Celtic red hair mummies in Asia?
perhaps maybe in History cultures had a lot more dispersal and interaction.
Didn't the domestic chicken come from the east. and Europe was the last place to get chicken farming. following my interest in the rooster/chicken as the inspiration for weapons, I have found some weapons from India , And some from china.
I will post 2 photos soon, 1 sword has a symbol on the scabbard I am curious about.
also about my sword I would like to mention it is also essentially a two handed sword. I will try to get a picture also, I find the pictures say more than words. the sword design being symmetrical also makes it easy to change hands, as the grip is always facing the right way. the point of balance of the sword is 6 inches forward from the bottom grip. I find the bottom grip quite comfortable. I think this is a very functional design, and perhaps the handle may be older than the blade.

Atavistic designs in edged weapons is well known in many cultures who called on iconographic depictions to bring their hereditary weapons into their present and traditions.

The reference to the mummies would be the Caucasian remains found surprisingly in Chinese Turkestan in Urumchi in the 1980s. Their exact origin is unclear but it was certainly far west into the 'Celtic' sphere. A lot of complex and highly debated anthropology there, but the key question with the 'Urumchi' mummies was what in the world were these Caucasians doing that far east several thousand years ago?

27th February 2021, 10:59 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Link to previous discussion on this sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=dongola As I had mentioned on the thread linked, the shape of this blade brings to mind Dongola in the Sudan along the Nile. The highly stylized hilt recalls certain anthromorphic swords and weapons to the south, especially in Congo regions. Many of the 'throwing knives' of these areas and into Sudan have these kinds of dramatically stylized shapes, and while many are indeed weapons used as intended, many African weapons are highly symbolic for ceremonial, status and ritual purposes. With this blade shape, this is clearly not a 'throwing knife', which as noted have these elaborate shapes, its use in status or official bearing seems possible. Joe, I very much like your ratiocination and thank you for sharing your notes and sketches!!! I knew I had seen this before somewhere, so thanks for bringing it back up, I'd like to get it figured out. On the 'editoral' notes, guys, nicely handled at keeping the P.C. beast in check. It is hard when we are expressing things anecdotally or in such mediums as in these public venues things can easily be taken wrong. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th February 2021 at 11:14 PM.

28th February 2021, 12:11 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Just to add more comparative thought, I cannot resist thinking of the so called 'antenna swords' of the late Bronze age Hallstadt culture, these attached are 10th c. BC found near Swiss lake Neuchatel. Obviously, aside from using von Daniken thinking, it would be beyond tenuous to associate this weapon to these with the chronological and anthropological disparities. However, the similarities are notable. With my note on the Dongola type blade, here is an example from a collection (c. 1998). Note the crocodile piercing in blade (I have seen another with this feature) and the curious bar across the pommel end of grip. This is mindful of various European forms of baselard from medieval into Renaissance times. We know that a number of African weapons seem to have evolved atavistically from probably iconographic sources, and it is possible this might be the case, in much the same manner of the baselard type elements. Attached Images

28th February 2021, 03:46 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Further thoughts on the design of the hilt on this sword In continuing reading through resources seeking more information on the possibilities for this sword (orig. post) , the chapter "The Shining Mystery: Throwing Knives of Africa" in "African Arms and Armour" (Christopher Spring, 1993) is most telling. In this, the nature of these curious and often wildly varying type of weapon is explained, from the often fanciful presumptions described by some Victorian authors, to the more reasonable awareness of their uses in other capacities . Pitt Rivers, the brilliant anthropologist wrote on these in 1875, and in 1925 Emil Torday wrote on these multibladed 'knives' from the perspectives of the Kuba( Bushong) people. In 1872, Nachtigal narrated that these types of weapons were largely 'throwing irons' used as a means of exchange, that is currency. This appears to have been the case in numerous tribal societies in these African regions. In 1925, Thomas prepared a chart trying to classify the various forms. This seemed to delineate them basically in a northern and southern category with variations in the blade arrangements. The reason for this foray into the mystery of these 'throwing irons' is that the geometric pattern in this hilt seems quite possibly to be a kind of symmetric arrangement of these weapons, coupled with the type of actual blade used in Dongola. As we know 'throwing knives' were used in Darfur and Kordofan, mostly in the status and official sense symbolically, it seems this might be some sort of diplomatic example, combining both weapon and the currency or exchange character of the 'shongo' to the south. Here I would note that the Darfur regions were highly active in slaving, which would possibly use this kind of 'exchange' currency, although it would not explain the 'Dongola' type blade, unless such activity incorporated those regions as well. Just thoughts on the possibilities of 'throwing knife' characteristics as seen on this sword and why they might have been applied to a blade of possible Dongola style.

1st March 2021, 12:44 AM	#7
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	I want to share some of my African research before I move on to the east. I found the deity Shango of interest as he is associated with the rooster and lightning. I also find the rooster itself mentioned as a deity that shoots lightning. and I find lightning associated with meteorites. so called lightning iron. I think Africa would have a greater occurrence of meteorites then most other locations. I also had notes somewhere that the Gibeon meteorite was used to make samurai swords in china circa 1838 by Yoshido. Also Shango is said to have been a human king who burned down his own palace for various reasons... due to his lightning. I find some similarity between my sword handle and this shango lightning symbol I will post below. Also i will post some Oshe wands, I do think the rooster influence and inspiration has much older origin than shango. Attached Images

27th February 2021, 04:20 PM	#2
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	shayde 78 thank you for the commendations, this forum has class, I will try not to mess it up too much,

28th February 2021, 06:58 PM	#6
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Thanks again Jim , I like the idea of the occurrence of an atavistically inspired weapon. Thanks for all the great info and photos also . I find the large round form in the center of the grip of some Celtic swords interesting. maybe Von daniken and aliens don't need to be invoked. I don't think we know that much anthropologically about the Celts weren't there Celtic red hair mummies in Asia? perhaps maybe in History cultures had a lot more dispersal and interaction. Didn't the domestic chicken come from the east. and Europe was the last place to get chicken farming. following my interest in the rooster/chicken as the inspiration for weapons, I have found some weapons from India , And some from china. I will post 2 photos soon, 1 sword has a symbol on the scabbard I am curious about. also about my sword I would like to mention it is also essentially a two handed sword. I will try to get a picture also, I find the pictures say more than words. the sword design being symmetrical also makes it easy to change hands, as the grip is always facing the right way. the point of balance of the sword is 6 inches forward from the bottom grip. I find the bottom grip quite comfortable. I think this is a very functional design, and perhaps the handle may be older than the blade.