Old Nimcha for Info and to share

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2021, 12:25 PM

Joe, these observations on the possible meanings in the marking motif on the blade of your nimcha are most interesting. While my earlier comments on these kinds of markings were somewhat pragmatic, the deeper meanings in Berber symbolism are indeed perhaps in degree sometimes incorporated into decorative motif on weaponry.

With regard to the 'flyssa', the sword associated with the Kabyle tribes of Berbers in Algeria, the decorative motif on these is a combination of early Byzantine artistic character along with talismanic symbols which indeed have protective purpose against the 'evil eye'. This is a common feature on the weaponry of tribal peoples' folk religion, often in the form of the 'aghrab', a symbolic device seen on Arabian swords.....and in the case of the triangular device in linear design on the flyssa, known as the 'fibula'.

These kinds of symbols and designs are as noted, often found on the edged weaponry of North Africa, which includes of course, a predominantly Berber population.

It is important to note that the Berber designation refers to an ethnic group of many tribal confederations and nations across coastal North Africa typically collectively regarded as 'Imazighen'. The term 'Berber' referring to Barbary, was not generally used until 19th c.

The Berber people are comprised of many tribal confederations, and while largely Muslim, still maintain their own folk religions, dialectic languages and of course symbolisms.

In the "Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons" (Tarussuk & Blair, 1986) in discussion on the 'flyssa', if I recall (the book is not handy at the moment), the authors suggest that much of the symbolism used in the motif of the swords occurs also on the textiles of the Kabyle people.

This would suggest that the symbolism and devices used on Berber weapons in decorative motif may well be found in the larger scope of Berber material culture including textiles, rugs.

Many elements of motif, as previously noted, come from various influences, such as the markings found on European trade blades, such as the 'Genoan' sickle marks, cross and orb and various cosmological devices, moon, stars, sun......though I am not specifying these to only Berber motif. There were likely Ottoman influences, with the curious designs of the 'toughra' perhaps copied in degree.

With the nimcha examples I showed in my post #13, the arc and star at the forte resembles that emblem used to signify 'the Rif' regions of Morocco.
In example #16, the three crosses on the blade of this nimcha appear to have been notably used by the Jabala confederacy of Berbers in Morocco, also in the Rif. These crosses were associated I believe with Raisuli (1871-1925), the noted Sharif of the tribes in the Rif .

Returning to the blade on the example of the OP, these triple fuller blades are well known on nimcha throughout the Barbary regions (from Morocco to Algeria, Tunis and Tripoli) and are imports, mostly perceived as German.

The attached are:
A Moroccan tribesman wearing a s'boula dagger along with photos of one of these, illustrating motif.

Next is a cut down example of one of these triple fuller blades having the crosses and a moon added. Note that these moons in paired form are common on Tuareg blades and Hausa from N. Nigeria through Saharan regions well into Algeria and Sudan. The crosses are well known on the koummya daggers known primarily in Morocco and Algeria.

The map shows the west, northwest regions of Morocco and the Rif, of the Jebala Berbers and tribal groups among them.

JoeCanada42 · 21st February 2021, 06:22 PM

Thanks, Tvv for the encouragement in thinking the symbols have meaning.
Thank you Jim for Putting together all this great knowledge. I am still interested and researching these triple fuller blades seen as imports.

Jim, it is interesting u mentioned these symbols would appear on the local textiles, because in researching another African symbol I did find it in textiles .
these "Berber" symbols, I find in their Henna body paint, and i have found similarity to Voodoo Veves which I find interesting. particularly the marking on my swords scabbard,- I have so many interpretations I wouldn't know where to start. On my scabbards symbol, the borders are highlighted with border lines which I didn't include in my drawing depiction. after cleaning that piece the border lines around the bordering scroll symbols are more visible. These bordering scrolling symbols ,should also have symbolic name & meaning,(like snake skeleton etc..) like what Tvv said about the floral scrolling depictions.

also I noticed this much earlier & didnt pay it much notice, but it is worth sharing, there is a name and date on the scabbard, the name is not legible anymore, (its English in cursive,) and the date 1891

JoeCanada42 · 21st February 2021, 06:29 PM

Jim, The S'boula you posted with the Eyes on the handle is very nice, the Scabbard also has very similar symbols to mine.

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2021, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

Thanks, Tvv for the encouragement in thinking the symbols have meaning.
Thank you Jim for Putting together all this great knowledge. I am still interested and researching these triple fuller blades seen as imports.

Jim, it is interesting u mentioned these symbols would appear on the local textiles, because in researching another African symbol I did find it in textiles .
these "Berber" symbols, I find in their Henna body paint, and i have found similarity to Voodoo Veves which I find interesting. particularly the marking on my swords scabbard,- I have so many interpretations I wouldn't know where to start. On my scabbards symbol, the borders are highlighted with border lines which I didn't include in my drawing depiction. after cleaning that piece the border lines around the bordering scroll symbols are more visible. These bordering scrolling symbols ,should also have symbolic name & meaning,(like snake skeleton etc..) like what Tvv said about the floral scrolling depictions.

also I noticed this much earlier & didnt pay it much notice, but it is worth sharing, there is a name and date on the scabbard, the name is not legible anymore, (its English in cursive,) and the date 1891

You bet Joe, Im glad I could add something useful, and welcome the opportunity to learn more on these aspects of these weapons.
Actually, while many of these symbols, motifs and decorations exist in remarkable similarity throughout the vast Berber sphere, they may have differing connotation somewhat depending on the regions and tribal groups.

With the West African symbols from the Vodun religion, many of these, which could have some representation in degree from Berber symbols, have indeed turned up in the 'Voodoo' veves. These Caribbean symbols derive from the Catholic Faith combined with Vodun becoming Santeria.

Naturally all of these are represented throughout the material culture of all these groups in many ways. What is often surprising is that the subject of symbols and markings of these kinds in ethnographic weapons are seldom, if ever, touched on in any depth. The interpretation of these is so highly subjective and deeply arcane that few wish to enter these areas.

kronckew · 22nd February 2021, 06:18 AM

My favourite Nimcha, and its star/eyebrow marking, roughly forged/pitted, gold designs on the guard. Wood grip replacement.

Posted originally HERE

JoeCanada42 · 22nd February 2021, 05:34 PM

The interpretation of these is so highly subjective and deeply arcane that few wish to enter these areas.,, I do like to, even if its just for fun...

Thanks for sharing you sword Kronckew I find it very interesting.
If I had to bet id say the wood handle could be original. looks like it could be 100 or 150 years old, and on a functional weapon id expect the wood handle to last. I dont know enough about the blades it looks older, But when your Nimcha was made assembled I bet it was with the wood handle. It looks like it matches. even the grain in the wood. your handle being of wood, and other nimcha handles with the more significant dragon shapes, remind me of Viking Boats...
Your Nimcha also on The Quillon has the three swirls wich look kinda like waves, matches the wood nautical viking theme, The image of the 3 swirls also look like Thors Hammer. also the actual "tear drop koftgari" on the quillons is very nice, gets me thinking maybe the whole reason the guard on nimchas has 3 prongs and not 2 or 4 may be symbolic. I looked at you original post and wish there was better photos, I suspect you eyelash mark is on the point of balance, and I like how the stars make a distance adequate to accommodate a limb or neck if cutting.

this may seem arcane but I was researching Orisha Gods recently specifically Ogun, and Shango. Shango In particular is significant to many .. is very Similar to Thor superficially.. just maybe "Viking" influence is understated

kronckew · 22nd February 2021, 09:05 PM

I've seen Viking jewelery (Thor's Hammer Mjolnir, for one) with similar spirals. (see below) Inote the Hammer head looks a lot like the decorated shape on the crossguard.

Here's a better HDR picture I took tonight, Lighting was not terribly good, might try again tomorrow in daylight. Sword was hung vertically on a ss hook in the finger area & rotated after.
p.s.- the stars & eyelash are on both sides.

Edited: Bit better exposure added:

21st February 2021, 06:22 PM	#2
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Thanks, Tvv for the encouragement in thinking the symbols have meaning. Thank you Jim for Putting together all this great knowledge. I am still interested and researching these triple fuller blades seen as imports. Jim, it is interesting u mentioned these symbols would appear on the local textiles, because in researching another African symbol I did find it in textiles . these "Berber" symbols, I find in their Henna body paint, and i have found similarity to Voodoo Veves which I find interesting. particularly the marking on my swords scabbard,- I have so many interpretations I wouldn't know where to start. On my scabbards symbol, the borders are highlighted with border lines which I didn't include in my drawing depiction. after cleaning that piece the border lines around the bordering scroll symbols are more visible. These bordering scrolling symbols ,should also have symbolic name & meaning,(like snake skeleton etc..) like what Tvv said about the floral scrolling depictions. also I noticed this much earlier & didnt pay it much notice, but it is worth sharing, there is a name and date on the scabbard, the name is not legible anymore, (its English in cursive,) and the date 1891 Attached Images

22nd February 2021, 06:18 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	My favourite Nimcha, and its star/eyebrow marking, roughly forged/pitted, gold designs on the guard. Wood grip replacement. Posted originally HERE Attached Images

22nd February 2021, 05:34 PM	#6
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	The interpretation of these is so highly subjective and deeply arcane that few wish to enter these areas.,, I do like to, even if its just for fun... Thanks for sharing you sword Kronckew I find it very interesting. If I had to bet id say the wood handle could be original. looks like it could be 100 or 150 years old, and on a functional weapon id expect the wood handle to last. I dont know enough about the blades it looks older, But when your Nimcha was made assembled I bet it was with the wood handle. It looks like it matches. even the grain in the wood. your handle being of wood, and other nimcha handles with the more significant dragon shapes, remind me of Viking Boats... Your Nimcha also on The Quillon has the three swirls wich look kinda like waves, matches the wood nautical viking theme, The image of the 3 swirls also look like Thors Hammer. also the actual "tear drop koftgari" on the quillons is very nice, gets me thinking maybe the whole reason the guard on nimchas has 3 prongs and not 2 or 4 may be symbolic. I looked at you original post and wish there was better photos, I suspect you eyelash mark is on the point of balance, and I like how the stars make a distance adequate to accommodate a limb or neck if cutting. this may seem arcane but I was researching Orisha Gods recently specifically Ogun, and Shango. Shango In particular is significant to many .. is very Similar to Thor superficially.. just maybe "Viking" influence is understated Last edited by JoeCanada42; 22nd February 2021 at 05:47 PM.

22nd February 2021, 09:05 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	I've seen Viking jewelery (Thor's Hammer Mjolnir, for one) with similar spirals. (see below) Inote the Hammer head looks a lot like the decorated shape on the crossguard. Here's a better HDR picture I took tonight, Lighting was not terribly good, might try again tomorrow in daylight. Sword was hung vertically on a ss hook in the finger area & rotated after. p.s.- the stars & eyelash are on both sides. Edited: Bit better exposure added: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 23rd February 2021 at 10:00 AM.

19th February 2021, 12:25 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,286	Joe, these observations on the possible meanings in the marking motif on the blade of your nimcha are most interesting. While my earlier comments on these kinds of markings were somewhat pragmatic, the deeper meanings in Berber symbolism are indeed perhaps in degree sometimes incorporated into decorative motif on weaponry. With regard to the 'flyssa', the sword associated with the Kabyle tribes of Berbers in Algeria, the decorative motif on these is a combination of early Byzantine artistic character along with talismanic symbols which indeed have protective purpose against the 'evil eye'. This is a common feature on the weaponry of tribal peoples' folk religion, often in the form of the 'aghrab', a symbolic device seen on Arabian swords.....and in the case of the triangular device in linear design on the flyssa, known as the 'fibula'. These kinds of symbols and designs are as noted, often found on the edged weaponry of North Africa, which includes of course, a predominantly Berber population. It is important to note that the Berber designation refers to an ethnic group of many tribal confederations and nations across coastal North Africa typically collectively regarded as 'Imazighen'. The term 'Berber' referring to Barbary, was not generally used until 19th c. The Berber people are comprised of many tribal confederations, and while largely Muslim, still maintain their own folk religions, dialectic languages and of course symbolisms. In the "Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons" (Tarussuk & Blair, 1986) in discussion on the 'flyssa', if I recall (the book is not handy at the moment), the authors suggest that much of the symbolism used in the motif of the swords occurs also on the textiles of the Kabyle people. This would suggest that the symbolism and devices used on Berber weapons in decorative motif may well be found in the larger scope of Berber material culture including textiles, rugs. Many elements of motif, as previously noted, come from various influences, such as the markings found on European trade blades, such as the 'Genoan' sickle marks, cross and orb and various cosmological devices, moon, stars, sun......though I am not specifying these to only Berber motif. There were likely Ottoman influences, with the curious designs of the 'toughra' perhaps copied in degree. With the nimcha examples I showed in my post #13, the arc and star at the forte resembles that emblem used to signify 'the Rif' regions of Morocco. In example #16, the three crosses on the blade of this nimcha appear to have been notably used by the Jabala confederacy of Berbers in Morocco, also in the Rif. These crosses were associated I believe with Raisuli (1871-1925), the noted Sharif of the tribes in the Rif . Returning to the blade on the example of the OP, these triple fuller blades are well known on nimcha throughout the Barbary regions (from Morocco to Algeria, Tunis and Tripoli) and are imports, mostly perceived as German. The attached are: A Moroccan tribesman wearing a s'boula dagger along with photos of one of these, illustrating motif. Next is a cut down example of one of these triple fuller blades having the crosses and a moon added. Note that these moons in paired form are common on Tuareg blades and Hausa from N. Nigeria through Saharan regions well into Algeria and Sudan. The crosses are well known on the koummya daggers known primarily in Morocco and Algeria. The map shows the west, northwest regions of Morocco and the Rif, of the Jebala Berbers and tribal groups among them. Attached Images

21st February 2021, 06:29 PM	#3
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	Jim, The S'boula you posted with the Eyes on the handle is very nice, the Scabbard also has very similar symbols to mine.