Requesting Help!! Identifying the specifics of a Kris

Jean · 17th February 2021, 09:14 AM

Yes gents, this is dapur jaran guyan "with minor exceptions", the tikel alis is vaguely carved, and the greneng is present but worn

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2021, 10:41 AM

Jean, I'd say that if we were to use the SKA pakem as the benchmark, there are more than a few exceptions, but then again, this is really only Surakarta, maybe in Surabaya things are different, and I can find more than a few named dhapurs in that SKA pakem, that more than a few SKA keris people will disagree with.

But all the same, its nice to be able to say something and not generate too much disagreement. If I wanted to stick a name on this keris --- and believe me, I do not --- I'd be looking for a different dhapur but with either more or less luk, for example something that is normally a 9 luk, but I might have a keris exactly the same only it has 5 luk, so I would then name my keris with the same name a the 9 luk, but add "--- luk lima".

Nobody would argue with that.

Well, at least I don't think they would.

But we're talking keris here, anything can happen.

Mickey the Finn · 17th February 2021, 02:41 PM

I wasn't sure about the correct spelling of the name of the dhapur, so I Googled a couple of variants and went with the one which brought up the greater volume of results.
This perhaps very concisely "proves your point" [in a manner of speaking] in the scribd.com post.
Just because most results are spelled in a particular way, it doesn't mean that that is the correct way. Just because many people believe something, that doesn't mean it's true/correct/valid.
In my previous post in the present thread, I was about to touch on the volume and the quality of content of hard-copy keris books available in Bahasa Indonesia. Your scribd.com post explained it more clearly than I could have/ attempted to do.
It's 06:38 and I haven't slept in over 48 hours, so I'll close now, before I lose any more focus.
Mickey

Postscript: Alan, about your post in the present thread at 10:41 AM: I myself could argue with you [or at least express my disagreement], and I perhaps will, but in the future. Or I may ask for clarification, which may make argument or contention needless.

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2021, 06:21 PM

Mickey, your 48 hour day is over, mine has just begun, it is 5.19am, and in ten minutes or so I start a 500km drive, and tomorrow the same. I'll explain when I get time, but briefly:- just about everything to do with keris is subject to variation of opinion.

Mickey the Finn · 23rd February 2021, 06:50 AM

After some sober second thought, I've realized that I have no desire to argue with any member of this forum. I have no confidence in my ability to hold my own in a keris-related argument or debate with any of the regular contributors to this forum.
I should have asked for clarification first, instead of hastily voicing my willingness [and implying my "know-how"] to contend over a keris-related point.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

A. G. Maisey · 23rd February 2021, 07:47 AM

Mickey, I doubt that anybody actually argues here, we're civilised, we discuss, sometimes we pontificate, but we don't really argue, and I took your "argue" as just that, discussion.

I can recall arguments of many years past that were really pretty entertaining, and in all honesty I was sorry to see the argumentative people get on their bikes and ride away. I recall one continental gentleman who was inclined to challenge somebody or other to rapiers at dawn. I found it hilarious --- our mediators did not though.

But you've left me up in the air. May I enquire what it was that I wrote that raised a question in your mind?

Mickey the Finn · 23rd February 2021, 11:54 AM

Alan, my "issue" is probably no more than a semantic one, a fussing over choice of words. And my choice of Bahasa Indonesia words will probably be found to be less than precise, and perhaps flat-out wrong. I once acquired a keris Bali luk 7 or 9 (I cannot remember which) billed as "dapur balebang", but it had a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah, and a greatly elongated gandik, like a keris kebo of some sort. I don't think it can rightly be named (menamai/menamakan) "dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". It could perhaps be described (menggambarkan?) as "resembling (menyerupai?)dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". I could be wrong, but I really don't think it's balebang. I don't know what dhapur it is.
To describe a person by their most distinguishing features is different from calling someone by their name.
I'm probably making "much ado about nothing", and I should have probably just kept quiet.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

I'm going to...not quote verbatim, but give my recollection of the gist of something you once said... With enough time, which I currently don't have, as it's 04:01, I might be able to find the exact quote. I recall you saying something like "...if it deviates from the pakem in the slightest detail, it's not that dhapur".

17th February 2021, 02:41 PM	#3
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Re: Jarang goyang, etc. I wasn't sure about the correct spelling of the name of the dhapur, so I Googled a couple of variants and went with the one which brought up the greater volume of results. This perhaps very concisely "proves your point" [in a manner of speaking] in the scribd.com post. Just because most results are spelled in a particular way, it doesn't mean that that is the correct way. Just because many people believe something, that doesn't mean it's true/correct/valid. In my previous post in the present thread, I was about to touch on the volume and the quality of content of hard-copy keris books available in Bahasa Indonesia. Your scribd.com post explained it more clearly than I could have/ attempted to do. It's 06:38 and I haven't slept in over 48 hours, so I'll close now, before I lose any more focus. Mickey Postscript: Alan, about your post in the present thread at 10:41 AM: I myself could argue with you [or at least express my disagreement], and I perhaps will, but in the future. Or I may ask for clarification, which may make argument or contention needless. Last edited by Mickey the Finn; 17th February 2021 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Postscript.

17th February 2021, 09:14 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Yes gents, this is dapur jaran guyan "with minor exceptions", the tikel alis is vaguely carved, and the greneng is present but worn Regards

17th February 2021, 10:41 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, I'd say that if we were to use the SKA pakem as the benchmark, there are more than a few exceptions, but then again, this is really only Surakarta, maybe in Surabaya things are different, and I can find more than a few named dhapurs in that SKA pakem, that more than a few SKA keris people will disagree with. But all the same, its nice to be able to say something and not generate too much disagreement. If I wanted to stick a name on this keris --- and believe me, I do not --- I'd be looking for a different dhapur but with either more or less luk, for example something that is normally a 9 luk, but I might have a keris exactly the same only it has 5 luk, so I would then name my keris with the same name a the 9 luk, but add "--- luk lima". Nobody would argue with that. Well, at least I don't think they would. But we're talking keris here, anything can happen.

17th February 2021, 06:21 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Mickey, your 48 hour day is over, mine has just begun, it is 5.19am, and in ten minutes or so I start a 500km drive, and tomorrow the same. I'll explain when I get time, but briefly:- just about everything to do with keris is subject to variation of opinion.

23rd February 2021, 06:50 AM	#5
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	After some sober second thought, I've realized that I have no desire to argue with any member of this forum. I have no confidence in my ability to hold my own in a keris-related argument or debate with any of the regular contributors to this forum. I should have asked for clarification first, instead of hastily voicing my willingness [and implying my "know-how"] to contend over a keris-related point. Sincerely and Respectfully, Mickey

23rd February 2021, 07:47 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Mickey, I doubt that anybody actually argues here, we're civilised, we discuss, sometimes we pontificate, but we don't really argue, and I took your "argue" as just that, discussion. I can recall arguments of many years past that were really pretty entertaining, and in all honesty I was sorry to see the argumentative people get on their bikes and ride away. I recall one continental gentleman who was inclined to challenge somebody or other to rapiers at dawn. I found it hilarious --- our mediators did not though. But you've left me up in the air. May I enquire what it was that I wrote that raised a question in your mind?

23rd February 2021, 11:54 AM	#7
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Alan, my "issue" is probably no more than a semantic one, a fussing over choice of words. And my choice of Bahasa Indonesia words will probably be found to be less than precise, and perhaps flat-out wrong. I once acquired a keris Bali luk 7 or 9 (I cannot remember which) billed as "dapur balebang", but it had a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah, and a greatly elongated gandik, like a keris kebo of some sort. I don't think it can rightly be named (menamai/menamakan) "dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". It could perhaps be described (menggambarkan?) as "resembling (menyerupai?)dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". I could be wrong, but I really don't think it's balebang. I don't know what dhapur it is. To describe a person by their most distinguishing features is different from calling someone by their name. I'm probably making "much ado about nothing", and I should have probably just kept quiet. Sincerely and Respectfully, Mickey I'm going to...not quote verbatim, but give my recollection of the gist of something you once said... With enough time, which I currently don't have, as it's 04:01, I might be able to find the exact quote. I recall you saying something like "...if it deviates from the pakem in the slightest detail, it's not that dhapur".