The British Broad Arrow Mark

[kronckew]

An Order in Council of 1664, relating to the requisitioning of merchant ships for naval use, similarly authorised the Commissioners of the Navy "to put the broad arrow on any ship in the River they had a mind to hire, and fit them out for sea"; while the Embezzlement of Public Stores Act 1697 (9 Will. 3, c. 41) sought to prevent the theft of military and naval property by prohibiting anyone other than official contractors from marking "any Stores of War or Naval Stores whatsoever, with the Marks usually used to and marked upon His Majesties said Warlike and Naval or Ordnance Stores; ... [including] any other Stores with the Broad Arrow by Stamp Brand or otherwise".

This implies it was 'usually used' on ordinance stores for a fair amount of time previous to the 1697 date.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... An Order in Council of 1664, relating to the requisitioning of merchant ships for naval use, similarly authorised the Commissioners of the Navy "to put the broad arrow on any ship in the River they had a mind to hire, and fit them out for sea"...

Would hou say Wayne that, the marking with the broad arrow (AKA crows foot) on military 'equipment' started at a first stage (1600's), and only much later this procedure was extended to actual weapons, like swords and firearms ?



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[fernando]

Here is another 1804 pattern cutlass marked with the broad arrow. Assuming that this pattern has only ceased being made circa 1845 (?), in this case the example shown has its actual production date limited to prior to 1807 as its blade spine is signed by BATE, who became Reddell & Bate during 1806.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Would hou say Wayne that, the marking with the broad arrow (AKA crows foot) on military 'equipment' started at a first stage (1600's), and only much later this procedure was extended to actual weapons, like swords and firearms ?



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As Adrian and I had suggested (posts 14,15) the use of the broad arrow as a government mark goes back to the 1300s, but do not seem to have extended from 'materials' to weapons until the time of Queen Anne (1702-14) in any notable degree.
From what I found and posted earlier is that artillery (including cannon balls as shown by Will) seems to have the arrow earlier in the 17th.

The markings seem to appear on gun locks in the early 18th, but as I had noted, swords being mostly privately secured (though proved by officials) did not have the arrow. Some swords (naval cutlasses as noted by CC) had the GR mark on the blade, but other rank and file just had makers names.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... As Adrian and I had suggested (posts 14,15) the use of the broad arrow as a government mark goes back to the 1300s, but do not seem to have extended from 'materials' to weapons until the time of Queen Anne (1702-14) in any notable degree...

Dear Jim, you might have noticed that i was aware of that; even posted confirming pictures. It seems as i didn't make myself understood. My question was not based on the span between 'materials' and weapons but between 'military equipment' and actual weapons, as per my previous post, due to having read it here and there. I was trying to dissect whether the term 'Military equipment' comprehends general hardware, artillery as for only guns ... or as (also) for ammunition; that not for swords and firearms.
But this was only a 'preciuousness' i was trying to tease Wayne to solve.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

...
But this was only a 'preciuousness' i was trying to tease Wayne to solve.

It of course hinges on defining exactly which stores they meant by "Any Stores of War or Naval Stores whatsoever, with the Marks usually used to and marked upon His Majesties said Warlike and Naval or Ordnance Stores; ... [including] any other Stores with the Broad Arrow by Stamp Brand or otherwise". Note use of the word 'ordinance'.

Must have been written by a drunken Lord Solicitor.

Naval stores - Definition: Supplies for warships. First use 1670.
The definition of ordnance is military weapons.

I did find a reference of:
"The cutlass remained an official weapon in United States Navy stores until 1949". (I've posted photos of a US Marine in ww2 carrying the milsco 1941 cutlass before)

(and beyond)


It then references a US Marine NCO killing a NK soldier with one in 195o's at Inchon, and the authorization in 2011 for petty officers to carry them ceremonially, and have seen photos of POs doing cutlass drill on the Hanger deck of a US Nuclear Carrier while in blue camouflage. The cutlass is alive and well.

As we have no examples of UK models that early with broad arrow stamps, it is unlikely that they so marked them that early.

I am sure if Fernando had been around there then he would have ensured they were stamped to verify authentic RN ownership. As usual it's the ARMY B.O. who is to blame.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I am sure if Fernando had been around there then he would have ensured they were stamped to verify authentic RN ownership...

Sure thing, Wayne .

[kronckew]

I forgot this 'Naval Hanger' of mine, a Continental impressed into RN service: Appears to have a broad arrow stamped over another mark.

[CutlassCollector]

Thanks everyone for the input.

So summing up - broad arrow on firearms definitely go back to Queen Anne's reign which started in 1707.
For cannon it seems even earlier and perhaps through the 17th century.
For stores and equipment and to indicate ownership of everything from screws, to cannonballs perhaps much earlier.

Swords were purchased privately by regimental colonels until around 1788 which explains why swords are not generally marked with the broad arrow. But did this change in the 19th century when presumably the BO took over the purchase of swords?

The arrow started appearing on cutlasses around the middle of the 19th century, both with BO and the later WD marks. Wayne - I can't explain the arrow on your 1804 unless both were applied at the same time when it was taken out of service.

Scinde thanks for the info on the E. I. Co and I attach a picture of a Mole cutlass with the I for India mark. I guess that dates it to around the 1855.

Regards,
David

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... The arrow started appearing on cutlasses around the middle of the 19th century ...

Maybe in early 19th century. Are you considering my recent post 26#, David ? .

[Fernando K]

Hi there

In some Belgian copies of English arms, the "broad arrow" has been forged, replacing it by a feathered arrow, without a crown, and also the word TOWER and the royal crown, with the figures G.R,

I have other attachments, but they are too heavy, I have to reduce them

Affectionately

[kronckew]

The pre-1804 pattern 'Spectacle' two disk guard cutlass initially had a smooth steel grip, the 1804 pattern steel grip was 'improved' to replace the slippery smooth round grip with a circumferentially grooved one, the grip also grooved fore and aft - like mine - which I suspect was surplused in the 2nd half of the century and the two arrowheads added. - I forgot, they are actually about 4 in. from the guard, not halfway. The next model1845 had a more bowl-like guard and a circumferentially grooved grip.

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by fernando

Maybe in early 19th century. Are you considering my recent post 26#, David ? .

Hi Fernando,
Yes our posts crossed.
All I can say is that in general the 1804 cutlasses did not have the broad arrow mark. They often have a royal cypher and crown on the blade and an inspectors mark but there are just as many with no marks at all on the blade. No cutlasses were ordered by the BO between 1816 and 1841. Most 1804s were made before 1810.

It's possible that your one was returned to service in 1840 and stamped then. The British navy had not ordered any cutlasses since the 1804 model and found themselves very short after a fire in the Tower destroyed a large number of cutlasses that had been sent for new hilts.

But that is the only 1804 that I have ever seen marked to Bate so maybe that batch was stamped with the arrow on the guard. As always we can never be absolutely sure.

Here are some cyphers.
Regards,
David.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... All I can say is that in general the 1804 cutlasses did not have the broad arrow mark. They often have a royal cypher and crown on the blade and an inspectors mark but there are just as many with no marks at all on the blade. No cutlasses were ordered by the BO between 1816 and 1841. Most 1804s were made before 1810...

David, let there be no doubt that you are well within this subject ... while i am only shooting in the dark. It is only confusing (for me) that various sites (three ...) i see out there offer 1804 cutlasses, claiming that their example comes with the broad arrow mark. Eventually in all those three, the pictures don't let see such detail.
... And i will act the Apostle Thomas way; see to believe !