Curious marriage: a Kard

mahratt · 5th February 2021, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I cannot find a single one with a similar scabbard. Well, maybe the one on the left, but only because of the nielo.

Correctly. Because there is not a single pchak in the photo. Only kards and karud.
But, in Caucasus, I cannot remember knives of such a shape that would fit this scabbard ... But in Central Asia there are such knives

By the way, I think from the knives that I showed in the photo against the background of the carpet, there is no question that their scabbard is from Central Asia?

Interested Party · 7th February 2021, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Correctly. Because there is not a single pchak in the photo. Only kards and karud.
But, in Caucasus, I cannot remember knives of such a shape that would fit this scabbard ... But in Central Asia there are such knives

By the way, I think from the knives that I showed in the photo against the background of the carpet, there is no question that their scabbard is from Central Asia?

What area did the niello for central Asian scabbards? Or was it a technique that was spread over a vast region without an epicenter to help pinpoint the craftsmanship?

mahratt · 8th February 2021, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

What area did the niello for central Asian scabbards? Or was it a technique that was spread over a vast region without an epicenter to help pinpoint the craftsmanship?

These were large cities that were capitals of khanates: Bukhara and Khiva. Although it is possible that individual masters could work in such a technique in other smaller cities as well.

ariel · 3rd March 2021, 07:18 AM

There were famous Bakhmud and Abdalla Tubchiev brothers who went to Central Asian khanates ( Bukhara, I vaguely remember) at the end of 19 century. They worked there as jewelers. In Central Asia they learned enameling techniques and brought it back to the Caucasus. In exchange they taught the locals Caucasian silverwork and niello.
They also worked for several years in Istanbul.
Both died when the Caucasus became “ Soviet” and all those years they made enameled scabbards and handles for the local and “ Moscow” bonzas. Thus, this kindjal is very, very highly likely can be dated to the beginning of the 20th century or even later.

It is almost always the itinerant masters who introduce new techniques, decoration motives, materials etc.

Just like Persian bladesmiths at the Moghul court who taught their Indian colleagues how to forge fancy wootz patterns instead of the customary “salt and pepper” one.

ariel · 4th March 2021, 10:25 PM

I have a strange feeling about it.
The face is peculiar, Central Asia was and still is Islamic. Even drawings of human faces are frown upon, but this is a 3-dimensional sculpture. Usually ( Hungarian, Philippine, Mughal etc) face is turned toward the edge. Here it faces the spine. There is a rivet through golden koft decorations.
And why on Earth would anybody put a fragment of European regulation blade into a Caucasian / Turkish kard scabbard?

I usually try to find positive things to say. Here I find one strange feature after another.

Could it be a composition of unrelated parts?

Gonzoadler · 5th March 2021, 08:05 PM

Hello,
I think it is a regional work. Central Asia sounds likely to me, as some members confirmed. But that is a debatable point, because it looks like a marriage/composition. I'm agree with that, ariel. But all parts except the blade are of a central asian or maybe caucasian origin (in my opinion) and I don't think it was made in the western world. Daggers from Central Asia were shown, which are made of recycled parts, too. This and some Bichaks with similar scabbards are arguments for this region.
What is your guess were and why it was made?
In every case it wasn't made recently to deceive anyone. The seller was no collector and the price was (very) moderate

Regards
Robin

ariel · 6th March 2021, 03:16 PM

It depends on your definition of “ deceive”.
Somebody might have made ( or ordered) it for private use as a hunting knife .
Then it went from hands to hands and the original story was forgotten.
Advertising this knife as Central Asian to get more money would be a deceit.
Selling it as a curiosity or relying on the description by the previous “deceiver” would be just ignorance.
There is nothing Central Asian here. Showing examples of other daggers of unknown provenance does not help: this is a usable knife composed of unrelated parts by somebody who was just attributionally ignorant or just didn’ t give a dam ( sic!) about authenticity. Walking stick handle is a good possibility, especially with cheap round glass “stones” on the top.
But, in the immortal words of “ Forged in Fire” , “ It will ke-e- ell” :-)

5th March 2021, 08:05 PM	#6
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Hello, I think it is a regional work. Central Asia sounds likely to me, as some members confirmed. But that is a debatable point, because it looks like a marriage/composition. I'm agree with that, ariel. But all parts except the blade are of a central asian or maybe caucasian origin (in my opinion) and I don't think it was made in the western world. Daggers from Central Asia were shown, which are made of recycled parts, too. This and some Bichaks with similar scabbards are arguments for this region. What is your guess were and why it was made? In every case it wasn't made recently to deceive anyone. The seller was no collector and the price was (very) moderate Regards Robin Last edited by Gonzoadler; 5th March 2021 at 08:39 PM.

3rd March 2021, 07:18 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There were famous Bakhmud and Abdalla Tubchiev brothers who went to Central Asian khanates ( Bukhara, I vaguely remember) at the end of 19 century. They worked there as jewelers. In Central Asia they learned enameling techniques and brought it back to the Caucasus. In exchange they taught the locals Caucasian silverwork and niello. They also worked for several years in Istanbul. Both died when the Caucasus became “ Soviet” and all those years they made enameled scabbards and handles for the local and “ Moscow” bonzas. Thus, this kindjal is very, very highly likely can be dated to the beginning of the 20th century or even later. It is almost always the itinerant masters who introduce new techniques, decoration motives, materials etc. Just like Persian bladesmiths at the Moghul court who taught their Indian colleagues how to forge fancy wootz patterns instead of the customary “salt and pepper” one.

4th March 2021, 10:25 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have a strange feeling about it. The face is peculiar, Central Asia was and still is Islamic. Even drawings of human faces are frown upon, but this is a 3-dimensional sculpture. Usually ( Hungarian, Philippine, Mughal etc) face is turned toward the edge. Here it faces the spine. There is a rivet through golden koft decorations. And why on Earth would anybody put a fragment of European regulation blade into a Caucasian / Turkish kard scabbard? I usually try to find positive things to say. Here I find one strange feature after another. Could it be a composition of unrelated parts?

6th March 2021, 03:16 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It depends on your definition of “ deceive”. Somebody might have made ( or ordered) it for private use as a hunting knife . Then it went from hands to hands and the original story was forgotten. Advertising this knife as Central Asian to get more money would be a deceit. Selling it as a curiosity or relying on the description by the previous “deceiver” would be just ignorance. There is nothing Central Asian here. Showing examples of other daggers of unknown provenance does not help: this is a usable knife composed of unrelated parts by somebody who was just attributionally ignorant or just didn’ t give a dam ( sic!) about authenticity. Walking stick handle is a good possibility, especially with cheap round glass “stones” on the top. But, in the immortal words of “ Forged in Fire” , “ It will ke-e- ell” :-)