Question about a motif.

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by Kurt

Can someone explain the motif on the back of the handle to me?
Kurt

This dagger is shown in the catalog of the Museum Stibbert.
The only difference :
There are no roses in the basket.

[kwiatek]

I would suggest the date rather as

سنه (٠٠)١٢

"Year 12(00)”

1200=1785-6

What people have read as two zeros/fives are part of the decoration/flowers. A zero would be a small diamond-shaped dot ۰ , like the one above the letter nun here, and a five would be a heart shape ۵ . I would rather suggest that the two zeros after 12 are implied rather than written

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by kwiatek

I would suggest the date rather as

سنه (٠٠)١٢

"Year 12(00)”

1200=1785-6

What people have read as two zeros/fives are part of the decoration/flowers. A zero would be a small diamond-shaped dot ۰ , like the one above the letter nun here, and a five would be a heart shape ۵ . I would rather suggest that the two zeros after 12 are implied rather than written

Thank you Kwiatek for your very interesting opinion.

However, this time, I beg to differ.

It is possible that the round "flower" after the numerals "١٢" (meaning 12) is simply for decoration but I believe it represents the numeral "٥" (meaning 5), only it was made to look as a flower for aesthetical reasons.

If one examines the carved cartouche, one may notice that all the other flowers are either outside or in line with the outline of the branch, and are slightly smaller. The only "flower" that is inside is the one following the numerals "١٢" and I believe this is for a reason. The same holds for the cartouche above where all four flowers are in line with the outline of the branch and are smaller.

So I believe the carver wrote "١٢٥" (meaning 125) but but wrote it in a more decorative form.

Moreover, the elaborate style of the carving definitely belongs to the 19th century and not to the 18th.

Last but not least, the type of the wootz is not consistent with the Kara Taban or Kara Khorasan with fine watering streaks used predominantly in the 18th century. This type of "crystalline" wootz appeared approximately at the beginning of 19th century (based on my own observations).

[kwiatek]

I think you are probably right. I agree it looks 19th-century and that 125(0) would fit better. Also, normally only one digit is normally missed out in a date.

Though Persians never wrote 5 this way, as a circle, maybe they have adjusted the shape to fit the decoration as you suggest.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by kwiatek

I think you are probably right. I agree it looks 19th-century and that 125(0) would fit better. Also, normally only one digit is normally missed out in a date.

Though Persians never wrote 5 this way, as a circle, maybe they have adjusted the shape to fit the decoration as you suggest.

Yeah we can speculate.

What about this? Does it mean anything?

[kwiatek]

سنه

sana

“Year”

I seem to remember that there are loads of these daggers in Bern in the Historisches Museum. There might be one with the same design - I would check the catalogue but the libraries are all closed for the while.

[Kurt]

Found photos of a Khandjar with a very similar motif.
The same craftsman?
Same workshop?
Best Kurt