Three in one

eftihis · 22nd May 2006, 12:44 PM

Hallo Yiannis,
Very beautiful knife. For me, there is no doubt that the knife is from Montenegro, i attach photos of a similar knife with exactly the same hilt, very characteristic of this area. The blade has much better work than my example, but looks very similar, therefore i think is also made in Montenegro.
However i believe is 19th century, and the proof is very obvious. The little guy on the design does handle a kilij, BUT NOT a flintlock! If you see carefully the mechanism is clearly a percusion one, which does not existed in 1787. The percusion was invented after 1820s, i am not sure when, and it took some decades to arrive in the balkans. Therefore i would date this after 1850.

Regarding the scabbard there is no doubt that is from trabzon area. Not only the configuration as Ariel says, but also the style of the niello work and most of all the shape of the scabbard which starts narrow get wider and has a long thin finish, is like a micrography of the laz yataghan scabbard!
Regards,
Eftihis

Yannis · 22nd May 2006, 02:11 PM

Eftihis, possibly you are right about percussion and date. I am not sure about the rest

I think the key here are these fullers. Please notice the crazy directions of them. I found nothing in books and sites. I wonder if anyone here has seen similar fullers anywhere.

Rivkin · 22nd May 2006, 11:05 PM

One of the keys here is niello - very typical caucasian work; indeed, niello of this type has been made in Trabzon; I doubt its production spread as far as Montenegro.

Concerning pontic greek affiliation - I don't know about Trabzon, but in Abchazia the policy of local ottoman leadership was to kill or seriously main every greek who spoke or wrote in greek (see "The Reports of the Edinburgh "Missionary Society in 1817-1818 with the supplement of the geographical and historical description of missions in Asian Russia"). For reasons I don't exactly understand ottoman policies in western georgia were more anti-greek than probably anywhere else, while the same logic did not apply to other languages. Therefore I would not expect anything from this area to bear any signature or writing in greek.

Yannis · 23rd May 2006, 12:45 AM

Rivkin, for me the signature is already there. I didn’t mention it before. In the area I know only Greeks to engrave warriors with their weapons on blades. Like the Hungarians more north. Still, I am possibly wrong.

Rick · 23rd May 2006, 02:49 AM

Yannis , I seem to remember similar fullering in a knife presented here for discussion some time back . Let me have a look through the archives ...

eftihis · 23rd May 2006, 09:01 AM

Hallo,
I post photos of a knife which i believe is from the same area. Look at the niello silverwork on the hilt. The style of work looks very similar. It certainly belonged to a Christian because of the Christian date, 1890. I have seen exactly the same style of knife so this must be a local variation somewhere.
Note the fish decoration on blade.
Regards, Eftihis

Rivkin · 25th July 2006, 06:45 PM

Did not know about armed people as a greek motiff, thank you Yannis. Attached are photos of some "caucasian" knifes (I would guess surmese ?).

22nd May 2006, 12:44 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Date is not true! Hallo Yiannis, Very beautiful knife. For me, there is no doubt that the knife is from Montenegro, i attach photos of a similar knife with exactly the same hilt, very characteristic of this area. The blade has much better work than my example, but looks very similar, therefore i think is also made in Montenegro. However i believe is 19th century, and the proof is very obvious. The little guy on the design does handle a kilij, BUT NOT a flintlock! If you see carefully the mechanism is clearly a percusion one, which does not existed in 1787. The percusion was invented after 1820s, i am not sure when, and it took some decades to arrive in the balkans. Therefore i would date this after 1850. Regarding the scabbard there is no doubt that is from trabzon area. Not only the configuration as Ariel says, but also the style of the niello work and most of all the shape of the scabbard which starts narrow get wider and has a long thin finish, is like a micrography of the laz yataghan scabbard! Regards, Eftihis Attached Images

23rd May 2006, 09:01 AM	#6
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 512	Similar niello work Hallo, I post photos of a knife which i believe is from the same area. Look at the niello silverwork on the hilt. The style of work looks very similar. It certainly belonged to a Christian because of the Christian date, 1890. I have seen exactly the same style of knife so this must be a local variation somewhere. Note the fish decoration on blade. Regards, Eftihis Attached Images

25th July 2006, 06:45 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Did not know about armed people as a greek motiff, thank you Yannis. Attached are photos of some "caucasian" knifes (I would guess surmese ?). Attached Images

22nd May 2006, 02:11 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Eftihis, possibly you are right about percussion and date. I am not sure about the rest I think the key here are these fullers. Please notice the crazy directions of them. I found nothing in books and sites. I wonder if anyone here has seen similar fullers anywhere.

22nd May 2006, 11:05 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	One of the keys here is niello - very typical caucasian work; indeed, niello of this type has been made in Trabzon; I doubt its production spread as far as Montenegro. Concerning pontic greek affiliation - I don't know about Trabzon, but in Abchazia the policy of local ottoman leadership was to kill or seriously main every greek who spoke or wrote in greek (see "The Reports of the Edinburgh "Missionary Society in 1817-1818 with the supplement of the geographical and historical description of missions in Asian Russia"). For reasons I don't exactly understand ottoman policies in western georgia were more anti-greek than probably anywhere else, while the same logic did not apply to other languages. Therefore I would not expect anything from this area to bear any signature or writing in greek.

23rd May 2006, 12:45 AM	#4
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Rivkin, for me the signature is already there. I didn’t mention it before. In the area I know only Greeks to engrave warriors with their weapons on blades. Like the Hungarians more north. Still, I am possibly wrong.

23rd May 2006, 02:49 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Yannis , I seem to remember similar fullering in a knife presented here for discussion some time back . Let me have a look through the archives ...