Cuphilt Sword with Damascus blade?

Will M · 26th November 2020, 11:41 AM

Does the blade pattern continue on the ricasso behind the shell guard?
Usually these kind of blades are not springy though I'm curious if it has some flex to it, it appears to be a light and fast blade.

AHorsa · 26th November 2020, 01:16 PM

As far as I can see the ricasso doesn´t seem to have distinct pattern and the distinct blade pattern seem to "stop" at the last centimeters before the cup. I tried to mark it on the attached images.
The blade is indeed very light and extremely flexible compared to my Dutch field sword.

Will M · 26th November 2020, 06:17 PM

Interesting that this blade has the same semicircular weld join as seen on circ. 1800 British swords joining the iron tang to the steel blade.
Also interesting the blade flexes, the steels used in the Damascus blade must both be hardened with spring qualities.
I would say quite a special blade in its day and today.
Could it be the blade is earlier than the hilt? An earlier blade re hilted to the then current type?
I don't think it's Indian made, their steel was not the quality of this. In fact many 1796LC blades were re hilted and used in India because of the steels better qualities.

kai · 27th November 2020, 07:56 AM

Hello forumites,

I believe we'd first had to ascertain that this really is not any genuine European blade from the most likely period before starting to go off tangents! From my point of view there is no need to refer to remote cultures as a putative origin for this blade...

1. As mentioned, welding a tang of soft iron (or very mild steel) to a blade is a time-honoured technique (in Europe as well as globally); it avoids breakage and unnecessary expenses (for higher carbon steel). IMHO there is no hint for any later repair work on the blade.
2. The blade is laminated. This is again a time-honoured, basic technique to combine different qualities of steel - with lower and higher carbon content, possibly also with different amounts of impurities like phosphor, etc. - especially if one wasn't able to control the steel quality or needed to work on a limited budget. If you economically forge-weld heterogeneous material, you tend to end up with laminations as seen here (regardless of the origin being Europe, India, Indonesia, Bangsa Moro, China, you-name-it...).
3. The structure of the laminations does not suggest that the blade smith was aiming at welding any controlled pattern especially done for show; I see no need to invoke sources famous for elaborate pattern-welding (Celtic, Alemannic, Viking, "Damascus", India, the SEA archipelago, ...)
4. In pretty much all cultures the quality of blades does vary (widely).
5. As an aside: There are lots of laminated blades originating from the South Asian subcontinent and neighbouring regions (as well as blades forged from crucible steel including wootz); and blades from both steel types may also exhibit elaborate pattern-welding if the blade smith did choose to do so.

From what I can glean from the pics, the only unusual feature of this blade seems to be that it got thoroughly cleaned, probably polished, and apparently treated with an etchant like ferric chloride or phosphoric acid in the not too distant past (if stored well, this look can be preserved for extended periods though). If such TLC were given more often by inquisitive collectors, I'm sure we would be more used to seeing laminated blades from all over Europe with contrasting layers of steel.

I can't clearly make it out from the pics: Are the edges (inserted or forming a central layer) made from steel with higher carbon content? This may be conflated by losses from sharpening during prolonged use and/or restoration.

BTW, good quality blades tend to become somewhat springy when they loose a considerable amount of material from prolonged wear (and/or restoration).

Regards,
Kai

Victrix · 28th November 2020, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello forumites,

I believe we'd first had to ascertain that this really is not any genuine European blade from the most likely period before starting to go off tangents! From my point of view there is no need to refer to remote cultures as a putative origin for this blade...

1. As mentioned, welding a tang of soft iron (or very mild steel) to a blade is a time-honoured technique (in Europe as well as globally); it avoids breakage and unnecessary expenses (for higher carbon steel). IMHO there is no hint for any later repair work on the blade.
2. The blade is laminated. This is again a time-honoured, basic technique to combine different qualities of steel - with lower and higher carbon content, possibly also with different amounts of impurities like phosphor, etc. - especially if one wasn't able to control the steel quality or needed to work on a limited budget. If you economically forge-weld heterogeneous material, you tend to end up with laminations as seen here (regardless of the origin being Europe, India, Indonesia, Bangsa Moro, China, you-name-it...).
3. The structure of the laminations does not suggest that the blade smith was aiming at welding any controlled pattern especially done for show; I see no need to invoke sources famous for elaborate pattern-welding (Celtic, Alemannic, Viking, "Damascus", India, the SEA archipelago, ...)
4. In pretty much all cultures the quality of blades does vary (widely).
5. As an aside: There are lots of laminated blades originating from the South Asian subcontinent and neighbouring regions (as well as blades forged from crucible steel including wootz); and blades from both steel types may also exhibit elaborate pattern-welding if the blade smith did choose to do so.

From what I can glean from the pics, the only unusual feature of this blade seems to be that it got thoroughly cleaned, probably polished, and apparently treated with an etchant like ferric chloride or phosphoric acid in the not too distant past (if stored well, this look can be preserved for extended periods though). If such TLC were given more often by inquisitive collectors, I'm sure we would be more used to seeing laminated blades from all over Europe with contrasting layers of steel.

I can't clearly make it out from the pics: Are the edges (inserted or forming a central layer) made from steel with higher carbon content? This may be conflated by losses from sharpening during prolonged use and/or restoration.

BTW, good quality blades tend to become somewhat springy when they loose a considerable amount of material from prolonged wear (and/or restoration).

Regards,
Kai

Are you arguing that this is a conventional European 18thC blade where lamination patterns were revealed due to thorough cleaning and chemical treatment? Can you show us any more examples?

fernando · 28th November 2020, 01:04 PM

Well, within my ignorance, all that the blade resembles European is its shape, fullers, tapering profile and all.
That the guard would (should) be Iberian, is not at all an implausible assumption; even Portuguese, juddging by the quillons fixation method, welded to the bowl rather than with screwed wings. Notwithstanding cross culture between the two countries may determine either origin.
One thing is certain; the person that has composed this (weird ?) setup is laughing behind the curtains at us, trying to figure out its identity riddle.

By the way...
... May one ask, Andreas; where in the world have you acquired this sword from ?

AHorsa · 28th November 2020, 08:45 PM

Hi Fernando,

I got it from an online auction in Germany.
But actually I am not sure if I keep it. On the auction images it wasn´t obvious that the blade is cleaned that much and that the rivet was opened as well as the renewed fixation of the quillons (welded). I asked for better images but didn´t get. As the seller is a dealer (who isn´t specialiced in antique swords) I have the right to return. I am unsure, as it is "touched" so much. On the other hand I like the overall style.

kai · 28th November 2020, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Are you arguing that this is a conventional European 18thC blade where lamination patterns were revealed due to thorough cleaning and chemical treatment?

I'm pretty sure that the laminations were enhanced by such treatment. A well-known example are the much earlier blades studied by Stefan Mäder: http://www.schwertbruecken.de/pdf/staehle.pdf

I'm stipulating that this might very well be a genuine European blade if the experts can't find any solid evidence that it doesn't fit. IMNSHO, just going by the unusual appearance is not compelling though.

Tell me which period this blade may originate from? I can't exclude it being a later reproduction but a few knowlegable folks here seemed to ponder whether it might be an older, refurbished blade.

I can positively state that this blade wasn't crafted by any traditional Moro bladesmith.

(Visayas and the whole Indo-Malay archipelago seem extremely unlikely as well...)

Regards,
Kai

Victrix · 29th November 2020, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'm pretty sure that the laminations were enhanced by such treatment. A well-known example are the much earlier blades studied by Stefan Mäder: http://www.schwertbruecken.de/pdf/staehle.pdf

I'm stipulating that this might very well be a genuine European blade if the experts can't find any solid evidence that it doesn't fit. IMNSHO, just going by the unusual appearance is not compelling though.

Tell me which period this blade may originate from? I can't exclude it being a later reproduction but a few knowlegable folks here seemed to ponder whether it might be an older, refurbished blade.

I can positively state that this blade wasn't crafted by any traditional Moro bladesmith.

(Visayas and the whole Indo-Malay archipelago seem extremely unlikely as well...)

Regards,
Kai

Thank you for posting that publication!

We have tried to fit the sword into a possible colonial context given its basic and slightly unusual appearance. The idea is that swords were modified or assembled using whatever was available far away from traditional European swordmaking hubs.

The part of the sword near the cup and the tang doesn’t look that different from my 17thC Solingen made “Ayala” cuphilt rapier.

I have a fairly worn 17thC Austrian Reiter/Felddegen with a worn blade and some loss of material. If cleaned thoroughly and etched, it might reveal patterns but probably not as elegant and flowing as the sword under discussion.

shayde78 · 3rd December 2020, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

As far as I can see the ricasso doesn´t seem to have distinct pattern and the distinct blade pattern seem to "stop" at the last centimeters before the cup. I tried to mark it on the attached images.
The blade is indeed very light and extremely flexible compared to my Dutch field sword.

For what it is worth, the blade on my cup hilt arming sword is of similar profile and is also light and flexible. I posted it recently here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26389

Looking at the corrosion patterns on mine, I'm wondering if mine would reveal a similar pattern to yours if over-cleaned.

shayde78 · 19th December 2020, 02:06 AM

Stumbled across this older thread of a piece formerly held by Fernando.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Smallsword

I'm wondering if anyone else thinks the patterning looks similar to the subject of this thread

mariusgmioc · 21st December 2020, 11:39 AM

In my opinion the blade clearly displays a pattern welded structure and NOT a simple lamination.

The streaks of differently toned steel imply that two different types of steel were used. Simply laminated blades do not show such high contrast between layers.

26th November 2020, 01:16 PM	#2
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	As far as I can see the ricasso doesn´t seem to have distinct pattern and the distinct blade pattern seem to "stop" at the last centimeters before the cup. I tried to mark it on the attached images. The blade is indeed very light and extremely flexible compared to my Dutch field sword. Attached Images

26th November 2020, 11:41 AM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Does the blade pattern continue on the ricasso behind the shell guard? Usually these kind of blades are not springy though I'm curious if it has some flex to it, it appears to be a light and fast blade.

26th November 2020, 06:17 PM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Interesting that this blade has the same semicircular weld join as seen on circ. 1800 British swords joining the iron tang to the steel blade. Also interesting the blade flexes, the steels used in the Damascus blade must both be hardened with spring qualities. I would say quite a special blade in its day and today. Could it be the blade is earlier than the hilt? An earlier blade re hilted to the then current type? I don't think it's Indian made, their steel was not the quality of this. In fact many 1796LC blades were re hilted and used in India because of the steels better qualities.

27th November 2020, 07:56 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello forumites, I believe we'd first had to ascertain that this really is not any genuine European blade from the most likely period before starting to go off tangents! From my point of view there is no need to refer to remote cultures as a putative origin for this blade... 1. As mentioned, welding a tang of soft iron (or very mild steel) to a blade is a time-honoured technique (in Europe as well as globally); it avoids breakage and unnecessary expenses (for higher carbon steel). IMHO there is no hint for any later repair work on the blade. 2. The blade is laminated. This is again a time-honoured, basic technique to combine different qualities of steel - with lower and higher carbon content, possibly also with different amounts of impurities like phosphor, etc. - especially if one wasn't able to control the steel quality or needed to work on a limited budget. If you economically forge-weld heterogeneous material, you tend to end up with laminations as seen here (regardless of the origin being Europe, India, Indonesia, Bangsa Moro, China, you-name-it...). 3. The structure of the laminations does not suggest that the blade smith was aiming at welding any controlled pattern especially done for show; I see no need to invoke sources famous for elaborate pattern-welding (Celtic, Alemannic, Viking, "Damascus", India, the SEA archipelago, ...) 4. In pretty much all cultures the quality of blades does vary (widely). 5. As an aside: There are lots of laminated blades originating from the South Asian subcontinent and neighbouring regions (as well as blades forged from crucible steel including wootz); and blades from both steel types may also exhibit elaborate pattern-welding if the blade smith did choose to do so. From what I can glean from the pics, the only unusual feature of this blade seems to be that it got thoroughly cleaned, probably polished, and apparently treated with an etchant like ferric chloride or phosphoric acid in the not too distant past (if stored well, this look can be preserved for extended periods though). If such TLC were given more often by inquisitive collectors, I'm sure we would be more used to seeing laminated blades from all over Europe with contrasting layers of steel. I can't clearly make it out from the pics: Are the edges (inserted or forming a central layer) made from steel with higher carbon content? This may be conflated by losses from sharpening during prolonged use and/or restoration. BTW, good quality blades tend to become somewhat springy when they loose a considerable amount of material from prolonged wear (and/or restoration). Regards, Kai

28th November 2020, 01:04 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well, within my ignorance, all that the blade resembles European is its shape, fullers, tapering profile and all. That the guard would (should) be Iberian, is not at all an implausible assumption; even Portuguese, juddging by the quillons fixation method, welded to the bowl rather than with screwed wings. Notwithstanding cross culture between the two countries may determine either origin. One thing is certain; the person that has composed this (weird ?) setup is laughing behind the curtains at us, trying to figure out its identity riddle. By the way... ... May one ask, Andreas; where in the world have you acquired this sword from ?

28th November 2020, 08:45 PM	#7
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Hi Fernando, I got it from an online auction in Germany. But actually I am not sure if I keep it. On the auction images it wasn´t obvious that the blade is cleaned that much and that the rivet was opened as well as the renewed fixation of the quillons (welded). I asked for better images but didn´t get. As the seller is a dealer (who isn´t specialiced in antique swords) I have the right to return. I am unsure, as it is "touched" so much. On the other hand I like the overall style.

19th December 2020, 02:06 AM	#11
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Stumbled across this older thread of a piece formerly held by Fernando. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Smallsword I'm wondering if anyone else thinks the patterning looks similar to the subject of this thread

21st December 2020, 11:39 AM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	In my opinion the blade clearly displays a pattern welded structure and NOT a simple lamination. The streaks of differently toned steel imply that two different types of steel were used. Simply laminated blades do not show such high contrast between layers.