Polish Hussar Lance/Spear examples?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy

This would be supported by the hooks, that could dismount violently if the lance tip did not make purchase. Very much a “congrats on making it past the tip unharmed. Guess what’s next?”

The hooks certainly don’t appear to be for stacking purposes. A haft of similar size will not fit within the hook.

That pair of hooks is indeed puzzling, especially as to their purpose. I would also rule out stacking -- a much smaller split-ring swivel on one side would perform that function a lot more effectively.

The hooks may be too small for engaging other shafts for stacking, and they are also not big enough, nor efficiently shaped, for use as musket-rests (and they are on a pole too long for the purpose). I've seen Italian musket-rests that are slightly extended above the hooks to terminate in a spear head. There is also an Italian cannoneer's implement called a buttafuoco with a spear head with a pair of addorsed appendages below it terminating in holders for match-cord, allowing a gunner to safely stand to the side when firing (avoiding the inevitable recoil) and giving him a bladed implement to defend his gun position if overrun. However, the hooks on this spear/pike are of an inappropriate shape and the shaft is again too long.

However, I would question their utility for dismounting a foe (whether by engaging his harness, clothing, etc). This is because the hooks curl forward. One would think that to yank someone off his high horse, a pulling motion would be a lot more effective and as such, the hooks should curve backward.
Below is an image of some examples of a weapon called a roncone (big billhook) whose crescentic and pointed appendages curve backwards and are admirably suited for unhorsing. This is from Mario Troso's Le Armi in Asta delle Fanterie Europee (1000-1500), pp 268-69.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Philip

That pair of hooks is indeed puzzling, especially as to their purpose. I would also rule out stacking -- a much smaller split-ring swivel on one side would perform that function a lot more effectively.

The hooks may be too small for engaging other shafts for stacking, and they are also not big enough, nor efficiently shaped, for use as musket-rests (and they are on a pole too long for the purpose). I've seen Italian musket-rests that are slightly extended above the hooks to terminate in a spear head. There is also an Italian cannoneer's implement called a buttafuoco with a spear head with a pair of addorsed appendages below it terminating in holders for match-cord, allowing a gunner to safely stand to the side when firing (avoiding the inevitable recoil) and giving him a bladed implement to defend his gun position if overrun. However, the hooks on this spear/pike are of an inappropriate shape and the shaft is again too long.

However, I would question their utility for dismounting a foe (whether by engaging his harness, clothing, etc). This is because the hooks curl forward. One would think that to yank someone off his high horse, a pulling motion would be a lot more effective and as such, the hooks should curve backward.
Below is an image of some examples of a weapon called a roncone (big billhook) whose crescentic and pointed appendages curve backwards and are admirably suited for unhorsing. This is from Mario Troso's Le Armi in Asta delle Fanterie Europee (1000-1500), pp 268-69.

I was thinking of the idea that the hooks for for dismounting an adversary coming at you, when you are receiving a charge. It was just an idea.

The curve on the hooks is pretty aggressive. It is really hard to determine their utility. I agree that they don’t appear to act as a linstock or musket rest.

I’m a big fan of Roncones and just got my first one.

[adrian]

I do not know what the purpose of these hooks is, to me they appear rather weak to have a serious & direct offensive or defensive role & they immediately remind me of the lashing 'hooks' on this combination musket/crossbow (see link). I have no idea if they are for fastening something to the lance and this is merely food for thought.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ation+crossbow

[Victrix]

As I understand it, the famous Polish Winged Hussars were equipped with exceptionally long lances of 4-7m. This meant that their lances would reach a pikeman first if the lance was longer than the pike. It also meant that the lances had to be hollow to reduce weight. Some say the lances splintered easily on impact and were disposable, others argue that the hollowness actually made them stronger and more able to absorb shocks. I understand that the Polished Winged Hussars charged at full gallop, and the shock impact must have been considerable. Some local sources claim that the lance could skewer several enemies on impact.

I think I have seen hooks like that somewhere but can’t recall where. They look like they are intended to catch and rip or deflect (enemy pikes?). The sharp blades attached on the sides would slice where the point might be deflected or it might cut enemy pikes on impact. I tried to search for an antique kopia on the internet to compare but was unable to find one.

[BUCC_Guy]

I found this snippet from a book. These examples of Kopia heads certainly back up the “disposable” idea. My spear is different in every possible way, except that it’s pointy.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Victrix

As I understand it, the famous Polish Winged Hussars were equipped with exceptionally long lances of 4-7m.

So true. A thought just came to me: if we are to assume that this weapon is indeed of Polish origin, and since from our discussion so far it doesn't seem to fit the description of the kopia associated with the hussars, could it possibly be a regulation pattern used by some other type of Polish military unit? If we had an idea, it could guide us to search in other areas.

The vexing thing is that there seems to be no other comparable examples in existence. At least to our present knowledge. Hopefully the historical military literature might provide an answer, or at least a clue.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy

I’m a big fan of Roncones and just got my first one.

Wow, please post it after it's fully unwrapped and you have had a chance to brandish and have some fun with it. I am a fan of these too; in general I try to stay away from polearms (mainly because I don't have high enough ceilings in my house!), but these are awfully tempting, as are spetums and corsesche a pipistrello.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Philip

Wow, please post it after it's fully unwrapped and you have had a chance to brandish and have some fun with it. I am a fan of these too; in general I try to stay away from polearms (mainly because I don't have high enough ceilings in my house!), but these are awfully tempting, as are spetums and corsesche a pipistrello.

I’ve attached some pics. I’m not sure what order they will attach in, but I have an overview of the roncone, a closeup up the blade, a view of the original langets (partial, I assume), the benefits of high ceilings, and the rest of the children waiting to be attached to the wall. Should have 18 total, I think.

I like to arrange them with similar heads opposite each other, so I’ll likely put the Polish pike on the end, opposite the large boar spear, and have the roncone opposite the large Glaive.

This was another reason I was excited to get the pike in this thread. It is going to balance out the display with my other spear, I hope!

I lost a corseque at auction this weekend, which would have matched my 15th century Italian lance. Sad, but I have to keep money in reserve for a large painting this weekend.

I need a decent corseque and spetum. I’m always looking for a traditional pollaxe, but at $8-12k, that’s a... commitment. I just bought this new house so my play money is disappearing quickly.

[Philip]

Thanks for posting your new treasure, it really deserves a thread all its own, hopefully we can have other members chime in regarding the development of the bill in other European countries besides Italy, with examples of same from their own collections!

Your roncone is indeed a wonderful example of the genre, its form quite nicely preserved, without visible damage, repairs, or alteration. The extremely long dorsal spike is a nice feature. Let's see it after you clean it up, (should look spectacular!) and get a dedicated discussion thread going.

[Victrix]

Excellent wall display! Congratulations. Looks really great. Here is a picture from Inverary Castle in Scotland for inspiration.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Excellent wall display! Congratulations. Looks really great. Here is a picture from Inverary Castle in Scotland for inspiration.

The castles make me depressed, because I will never have enough for the repetitive displays of 40 of the same item. I really like the fans and circles made up of muskets and polearms. I’d love 8 swords crossed like they have, but, money wise, I’m likely targeting just two to three swords in the future.

I used the Higgins Armory (now closed) as an example for my display. I would have done a full half-circle if my ceiling wasn’t slanted.

I have more to hang, and I’ll make a thread about my hanging system, which I’m very happy with.

[BUCC_Guy]

Originally Posted by Philip

Thanks for posting your new treasure, it really deserves a thread all its own, hopefully we can have other members chime in regarding the development of the bill in other European countries besides Italy, with examples of same from their own collections!

Your roncone is indeed a wonderful example of the genre, its form quite nicely preserved, without visible damage, repairs, or alteration. The extremely long dorsal spike is a nice feature. Let's see it after you clean it up, (should look spectacular!) and get a dedicated discussion thread going.

I started a thread on it before it even arrived. I just bumped it with more closeup pictures.

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy

I’ve attached some pics.

Display looks great! Showed it to the wife and she gave the seal of approval. Love the bellow coffee table too!