Khanda,what is it?

William.m · 20th May 2006, 08:16 PM

Alrighty, have a reduced size picture here so that you can see the inward curve.
Also there is a closeup of the hilt.

ariel · 20th May 2006, 11:23 PM

My understanding that Khanda usually has re-inforcing plates on both edges, so that the upper one remains sharp for ! 1/3 and the lower one for !2/3-3/4 of the length. I looked at gatka videos where they use Khanda and the fencer kept his left hand on the back side of the blade, directing the sword.
This one is , IMHO, in Sowth Indian style (pierced guard) and the entire style of the guard is of a transition between Old Indian and basket styles. I would guess 17-18th century.
The blade... Well, it depens if one wants to call it a Patissa or a Sossun Pata (because of the downward curvature). I would not be surprised if it was wootz.
My 5 cents worth....

Rick · 20th May 2006, 11:23 PM

Stone shows a similar piece with a slightly downcurved blade . It looks also like the blade has been fairly vigorously cleaned ; regardless of that I like it !
Antique shop find ; boot sale ?
The hilt is quite nice .

William.m · 21st May 2006, 12:45 AM

Ohhh, very interesting! I don't think it is 17th century as the scabbard looks fairly modern, but then again it may just be a recent addition. The hilt certainly looks and feels very old, but the blade itself does not.

Along the blade there is a fuller, which I am assuming has almost dissipeared due to a strong polish over the years.

In regards to the blade having re-inforcing plates, this may had been as if you can see on the pictures just above the guard there is a hole in the blade. Perhaps this was used for attaching these plates?

On monday if the weather is good, I plan to give the blade an acid wash to see if it is indeed wootz steel.

Anyways many thanks to Rick and Ariel, you have been of great help and I will post pictures of my acid wash results.

Regards,

Will

Rick · 21st May 2006, 12:50 AM

Gently with the acid Will ....

ariel · 21st May 2006, 01:56 AM

Oops, I missed the hole!
What it means, beyond doubt, is that the blade/handle marriage is not their first one.
This blade was formerly used for a sword with a real baskethill
handle and was riveted.
This is a replacement; either old (Indians saved handles and used replacement blades) or new.
If the former, it is OK, if the latter...
I have seen several Indian swords, usually with desirable Khanda, Sossun Pata or Tegha blades (all recently made) inserted into old "Khanda" handles and sold for a fortune.
This one does not look new, but just in case, look carefully if there are signs of any new sharpening, whether the steel is soft etc.
Sorry for sounding paranoid, but I gor burned myself...

RSWORD · 21st May 2006, 01:52 PM

To determine if the blade is a new one mounted with an older hilt, or, an old blade that has been buffed up bright, I would view the blade closely as you can beneath the langets. If someone did indeed buff up an older blade, there should be patina or corrosion beneath the langet that you simply cannot reach when buffing. If this area is consistent with the balance of the blade then the buffing was done uniformly before mounting to the hilt. If it has corrosion or dark patina, then the buffing was performed while blade is attached to hilt and may be suggestive the two have been together for awhile. If the blade turns out to be wootz, that is another good sign that the blade is older.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st May 2006, 04:18 PM

Nice pattisa you got – congratulations.
Hilts were reused as well as blades, and when the blades were worn out, they were used to make new blades out of. Some of the pattisa/khanda blades were very flexible, and as they wanted to have a flexible, but not too heavy, but still a stiff blade, they reinforced them. It is however not all the blades which were reinforced. I think reinforcement would need to be fastened at least in two places, so if there is only one hole, close to the hilt, on your sword, I doubt that it was for reinforcement.
Is the mark close to the tip the only on the blade?

Like Rick says, be careful when etching, especially if you have not tried it before, then a search on the forum for etching might be a good idea.

20th May 2006, 08:16 PM	#1
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Alrighty, have a reduced size picture here so that you can see the inward curve. Also there is a closeup of the hilt.

20th May 2006, 11:23 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding that Khanda usually has re-inforcing plates on both edges, so that the upper one remains sharp for ! 1/3 and the lower one for !2/3-3/4 of the length. I looked at gatka videos where they use Khanda and the fencer kept his left hand on the back side of the blade, directing the sword. This one is , IMHO, in Sowth Indian style (pierced guard) and the entire style of the guard is of a transition between Old Indian and basket styles. I would guess 17-18th century. The blade... Well, it depens if one wants to call it a Patissa or a Sossun Pata (because of the downward curvature). I would not be surprised if it was wootz. My 5 cents worth....

20th May 2006, 11:23 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Stone shows a similar piece with a slightly downcurved blade . It looks also like the blade has been fairly vigorously cleaned ; regardless of that I like it ! Antique shop find ; boot sale ? The hilt is quite nice .

21st May 2006, 12:45 AM	#4
William.m Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 104	Ohhh, very interesting! I don't think it is 17th century as the scabbard looks fairly modern, but then again it may just be a recent addition. The hilt certainly looks and feels very old, but the blade itself does not. Along the blade there is a fuller, which I am assuming has almost dissipeared due to a strong polish over the years. In regards to the blade having re-inforcing plates, this may had been as if you can see on the pictures just above the guard there is a hole in the blade. Perhaps this was used for attaching these plates? On monday if the weather is good, I plan to give the blade an acid wash to see if it is indeed wootz steel. Anyways many thanks to Rick and Ariel, you have been of great help and I will post pictures of my acid wash results. Regards, Will

21st May 2006, 12:50 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Gently with the acid Will ....

21st May 2006, 01:56 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oops, I missed the hole! What it means, beyond doubt, is that the blade/handle marriage is not their first one. This blade was formerly used for a sword with a real baskethill handle and was riveted. This is a replacement; either old (Indians saved handles and used replacement blades) or new. If the former, it is OK, if the latter... I have seen several Indian swords, usually with desirable Khanda, Sossun Pata or Tegha blades (all recently made) inserted into old "Khanda" handles and sold for a fortune. This one does not look new, but just in case, look carefully if there are signs of any new sharpening, whether the steel is soft etc. Sorry for sounding paranoid, but I gor burned myself...

21st May 2006, 01:52 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	To determine if the blade is a new one mounted with an older hilt, or, an old blade that has been buffed up bright, I would view the blade closely as you can beneath the langets. If someone did indeed buff up an older blade, there should be patina or corrosion beneath the langet that you simply cannot reach when buffing. If this area is consistent with the balance of the blade then the buffing was done uniformly before mounting to the hilt. If it has corrosion or dark patina, then the buffing was performed while blade is attached to hilt and may be suggestive the two have been together for awhile. If the blade turns out to be wootz, that is another good sign that the blade is older.

21st May 2006, 04:18 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Nice pattisa you got – congratulations. Hilts were reused as well as blades, and when the blades were worn out, they were used to make new blades out of. Some of the pattisa/khanda blades were very flexible, and as they wanted to have a flexible, but not too heavy, but still a stiff blade, they reinforced them. It is however not all the blades which were reinforced. I think reinforcement would need to be fastened at least in two places, so if there is only one hole, close to the hilt, on your sword, I doubt that it was for reinforcement. Is the mark close to the tip the only on the blade? Like Rick says, be careful when etching, especially if you have not tried it before, then a search on the forum for etching might be a good idea.