eBay keris... are these Kraton pieces?

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

Hi Alam Shah.
I picked you for someone with a penchant for Malay/Sumatra/Bugis kerises.

Hi Pangeran Datu,
If you had seen my tiny collection, what you mentioned above is the bulk of it. Although, I have a few javanese pieces and others as well.

How come so much interest in these pieces?

My knowledge in Javanese pieces is limited. The Keraton pieces I've seen are only in books. Furthermore, doecon is a member of this forum, hence the question.

- WRT 1st piece: I believe that Pamengkang Jagad occurs because at some stage of the manufacturing process, the temperature wasn't high enough, thus not allowing some sections between iron and pamor layers to meld properly. The through crack is because there is no steel core. Connoisseurs as well as the keraton class generally consider this type of keris as being defective. However, it is apparently popular among newcomers and in Malaysia.(See also Satria's comments, above)

Your answer on Pamengkang Jagad, (a direct translation from Ensiklopedi Keris, pg:332), is appreciated. Afaik, those interested in Malaysia and Singapore are mainly for its esoteric values.

- WRT 2nd piece: The only Keraton Yogya kerises I have seen with pendok, have been those made of precious metal and/or inlayed with stones. The pendok is usually not merely used as a sheath protector, but also as a display of wealth/status/power.

Yes, the ones that I've seen are adorned pieces as well.

I'm sorry, I didn't elaborate.
It was presumptious of me to assume that all enthusiasts will always research/brush up on something, to the best of their ability, before seeking outside help. But, there is a limit to how much one can absorb and understand ( especially by oneself). Of course, the final decision is yours and it should be the best-informed one you can muster.

Thank you for elaborating.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Pangeran Datu,
If you had seen my tiny collection, what you mentioned above is the bulk of it. Although, I have a few javanese pieces and others as well.

No, I haven't seen your collection. Is it available for viewing somewhere? Regarding what I said about your penchant, I just drew a long bow, based on your nick, avatar and location

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Thank you for elaborating.

YW Glad to be of any assistance.
I think the indos refer to it as: Gotong Royong

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

No, I haven't seen your collection. Is it available for viewing somewhere? Regarding what I said about your penchant, I just drew a long bow, based on your nick, avatar and location

I see.

YW Glad to be of any assistance.
I think the indos refer to it as: Gotong Royong.

Yes it is, "the spirit of sharing". "Gotong Royong" is also a Malay term.

[BluErf]

In my opinion, there are indeed many kerises out there (I'm not referring to the kerises in discussion in this thread) that are being offered as kraton pieces. Whether they are real or not needs careful discernment, and sometimes a leap of faith.

I have some questions which I hope can be answered:

1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards?

2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality?

3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu?

4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece?

5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces?

And also, just to share - there is a book published by the Yogya kraton. It has good pictures of the principal keris attributed to the Sultan, the crown prince, the Eldest son and the chief minister. The Sultan's own keris is a rather 'unspectacular' straight keris with a little bit of kinatah work and a combong. And I have seen the keris blade of the super gold Bugis keris on the cover of "Court Arts of Indonesia". That is a "normal-looking" 7-waved Bugis blade. No doubt a good tough blade with good form, but nothing fancy that we would imagine.

So what does it mean to be a kraton piece? And what are the conceptions that we have of the way a kraton piece must look?

[Alam Shah]

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

Hello again Alam shah,
How long is a piece of string? ...
Take your pick... the definition of a kraton piece depends on whom you speak to. It can mean pieces owned by previous and current rulers..... it can mean pieces owned by previous and current kraton personnel......it can mean pieces commissioned by the ruler or kraton....In any case, I'd be surprised if they weren't made by an Empu instead of a panday ( here I make a distinction between Empu and panday, as many people in Java do). As well, it can mean just normal pieces.. or it can mean pieces with tuah or pusakas.... Or any combination of the above and more
In my opinion, the Holy Grail is the pusaka tuah that have traditionally been thrown away or given away for safe-keeping by forebears, prior to their demise.Believe me, they DO exist
Ko nie bijak laa.

[Sepang]

MANY SELLER NEED TO GET PROFIT BY TELLING NOT TRUE.
SAID THAT A KRIS WHICH THEY OFFERED IS CAME FROM ROYAL PALACE, BUT ACTUALLY NOT
JUST BECAUSE THE PENDOK WHICH USED HAS ROYAL SYMBOL THAN IT CAN SAID AS ROYAL KRISS ?
..............
WE KNEW EACH OTHER ABOUT TRICK LIKE THIS HUH ? DID YOU, DEOCON ?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

In my opinion, the Holy Grail is the pusaka tuah that have traditionally been thrown away or given away for safe-keeping by forebears, prior to their demise.

Obviously you have not read or seen the Da Vinci Code.

[doecon]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

Alam, with all respect. Before you seem to be able to conclude that the keris mentioned are not Keraton keris. But when asked about the criteria to do so you have no clue?

...

I'm starting to wonder what is the real purpose of your question
Have a nice day.

[nechesh]

Doecon and Sepang, i hope you don't think that this forum is the proper place to get into a dealer's war. I would hate to see this thread digress into such child's play.
As Alam Shah is not a dealer i suspect you may have the wrong impression of what his purpose in starting this thread was. It seems pretty obvious to me and it has brought up some seriously interesting questions which i would love to see answered before you guys start throwing stones and get this thread locked.
I have my own suspicions as to what actually qualifies a keris as a kraton piece (as i am sure Alam Shah does as well), but i also would love to hear what others with more experience with the kraton itself might have to say on the subject.
I will, however, go out on a limb here by saying that i seriously doubt the keris in question here have had anything to do with the kraton by any of the criteria that BluErf brings up. Can't say why......just a feeling i guess.