British dragoon sword

Jim McDougall · 18th September 2020, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Will,
I don't know. I am just speculating that these swords with the ring attachment may be later, as this type of sword seems to have been in use during the American war of independence.

Jim,
The similar sword is for sale somewhere in the US. It is described as a revolutionary war dragoon sword. That article suggests that the "Potter" swords were based on British swords and also that some of the British forces were using "Potter" swords as well, so it wouldn't be surprising that you found your sword in London. Can you have a look at your sword to see if it has a Potter stamp?
Cheers,
Bryce

Thanks Bryce, apparently James Potter of New York City was a loyalist and making these swords for the British cavalry assigned in America. The swords were extremely favored and acquired by a number of the Patriot forces.
The term POTTER sword became sort of a standard.
I wish I could see the blade but the pitting is profuse overall unfortunately.
Potter began in 1778 and ceased in 1781 when he removed to Nova Scotia.
This material I found last night after digging through all the references I could find.

I think the type of ring attachment on my sword is more in line with those on basket hilts of c. 1750s including certain other dragoon sword types. It is most curious to see this type pommel ring with the tall olive pommel and four slot guard which seem more toward 1770.

Hotspur · 19th September 2020, 01:44 AM

As noted in the ASAC article. there were other makers making similar swords. The Potter swords were made to a pattern satisfying British wants, so it stands to reason they mimic the English swords.

Look also to the Hanoverian influences to the egg shape pommels and slotted hilts.

Cheers
GC

Bryce · 19th September 2020, 07:08 AM

Here is one in the Royal Collection. Unfortunately it isn't marked and hasn't been further identified. We need to find one marked with a British maker to clear this up.
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 21st September 2020, 06:39 PM

I thought it would be helpful to add some illustrations from Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" , 1973.
We now are reasonably certain that the 15th light dragoons, the first of the new regiments begun in 1759 were using a unique type of sword, the recurved guard form previously discussed.

The next two regiments were the 16th and 17th.
The 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st were in place by 1760.

It seems that a simple hilt, with 'four slot' guard was used by some of these units, with the 16th and 17th most likely and the tall olive pommel appears regularly associated with these hilts. The blades were essentially straight, slight curve, and 34" to 37". (279.S).

Note 282.S , the lionhead with recurved quillon , the blade is notably with clipped tip, the date noted suggests as early as 1759, the origin of the light dragoon units.

Note 280.S another light dragoon sword included in the mysterious 1759 to 1770 grouping, but this one has the pommel 'ring' feature as seen on my example.
The 'test' in 1756 for light dragoons used a brass, heart shape hilt (sim. to 1751 hangers) ...and this sword appears to have heart shape (also with quillon) but openwork rather than solid, two branches added and above all...note the pommel ring.

Post #16 shows a light dragoon like mine, with pommel ring, but is not identified. There appears to be a 16 on the blade at forte.

Is it possible this was a light dragoon to 16th (perhaps 17th) as with the swords produced 1759-into 60s for these units ?
The ring pommel as I had mentioned earlier, was of form used in basket hilts (1750s) as well as the dragoon sword (280.S).

So this put my example in the early forms of light dragoon, 1760s?

The clipped point seems around earlier as well (the lionhead, 15th? 282.S)

By the 1770s, the 16th still using the clipped point, four slot..........see image of a trooper where clipped point visible (these paintings are keen on detail).

So Nathaniel Potter in New York City in 1778 is making his famed 'POTTER' swords , BASED on British light dragoon swords in use.
It looks remarkably like my example but with globular pommel, no ring guard and much heavier.

Jim McDougall · 21st September 2020, 07:11 PM

My example of OP,
The blade is 33" with clipped point.
The hilt is 7" from guard to top of capstan

Four slot guard, tall olive pommel and the pommel ring holding guard.

E.B. Erickson · 24th September 2020, 12:00 PM

Hi Jim,
Very cool sword, and the pitting doesn't detract from it at all!

I've got a similar sword, but mine has more of a bun-shaped pommel, and a 34" curved blade with the "standard" narrow and wide fullers. The slotted guard on mine is more rounded as well. Sadly. no photos to share - we were stuck here in Thailand due to Covid travel restrictions. This was an eBay find of about 10 years ago, and the whole sword was covered in white paint when I received it. What is it about antiques attracting white paint???

--ElJay

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2020, 03:54 PM

Hi Eljay,
I am so glad to see you come in on this my friend! It is great to be returning to the study of these early British dragoon swords from all the years ago when I first got them, when we were putting together all the patterns.

I think the bun type pommel was one of the ones also seen with this distinct 'pommel ring' which seems to have paralleled the method of guard attachment to top of grip below pommel.

As the typical dragoon swords from c. 1707 had been basket hilts, and these were being produced by various cutlers usually using Solingen import blades, it would seem likely that this characteristic feature would be the inclination of many. As Jeffries , we know was producing basket hilts in 1759 when the light dragoon system was being initiated, and it seems plausible that he may have employed this ring type feature in his 'other' hilts for the new light units.

We have established that the 15th, the first unit, had chosen a recurved guard hilt favoring certain hunting hanger types of the period, but those for the subsequent units, the 16th and 17th are not clear at this point.

Thank you again for entering here, as your knowledge on British swords is unparalleled and I really look forward to your insights!!!!!

You're right on the white paint!!!!! That the ?????? Auugghh!

All the best, Godspeed and stay safe over there,
Jim

19th September 2020, 01:44 AM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	As noted in the ASAC article. there were other makers making similar swords. The Potter swords were made to a pattern satisfying British wants, so it stands to reason they mimic the English swords. Look also to the Hanoverian influences to the egg shape pommels and slotted hilts. Cheers GC Attached Images

19th September 2020, 07:08 AM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	Here is one in the Royal Collection. Unfortunately it isn't marked and hasn't been further identified. We need to find one marked with a British maker to clear this up. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

21st September 2020, 06:39 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I thought it would be helpful to add some illustrations from Neumann, "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" , 1973. We now are reasonably certain that the 15th light dragoons, the first of the new regiments begun in 1759 were using a unique type of sword, the recurved guard form previously discussed. The next two regiments were the 16th and 17th. The 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st were in place by 1760. It seems that a simple hilt, with 'four slot' guard was used by some of these units, with the 16th and 17th most likely and the tall olive pommel appears regularly associated with these hilts. The blades were essentially straight, slight curve, and 34" to 37". (279.S). Note 282.S , the lionhead with recurved quillon , the blade is notably with clipped tip, the date noted suggests as early as 1759, the origin of the light dragoon units. Note 280.S another light dragoon sword included in the mysterious 1759 to 1770 grouping, but this one has the pommel 'ring' feature as seen on my example. The 'test' in 1756 for light dragoons used a brass, heart shape hilt (sim. to 1751 hangers) ...and this sword appears to have heart shape (also with quillon) but openwork rather than solid, two branches added and above all...note the pommel ring. Post #16 shows a light dragoon like mine, with pommel ring, but is not identified. There appears to be a 16 on the blade at forte. Is it possible this was a light dragoon to 16th (perhaps 17th) as with the swords produced 1759-into 60s for these units ? The ring pommel as I had mentioned earlier, was of form used in basket hilts (1750s) as well as the dragoon sword (280.S). So this put my example in the early forms of light dragoon, 1760s? The clipped point seems around earlier as well (the lionhead, 15th? 282.S) By the 1770s, the 16th still using the clipped point, four slot..........see image of a trooper where clipped point visible (these paintings are keen on detail). So Nathaniel Potter in New York City in 1778 is making his famed 'POTTER' swords , BASED on British light dragoon swords in use. It looks remarkably like my example but with globular pommel, no ring guard and much heavier. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st September 2020 at 07:07 PM.

21st September 2020, 07:11 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	My example of OP, The blade is 33" with clipped point. The hilt is 7" from guard to top of capstan Four slot guard, tall olive pommel and the pommel ring holding guard. Attached Images

24th September 2020, 12:00 PM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Hi Jim, Very cool sword, and the pitting doesn't detract from it at all! I've got a similar sword, but mine has more of a bun-shaped pommel, and a 34" curved blade with the "standard" narrow and wide fullers. The slotted guard on mine is more rounded as well. Sadly. no photos to share - we were stuck here in Thailand due to Covid travel restrictions. This was an eBay find of about 10 years ago, and the whole sword was covered in white paint when I received it. What is it about antiques attracting white paint??? --ElJay

24th September 2020, 03:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Eljay, I am so glad to see you come in on this my friend! It is great to be returning to the study of these early British dragoon swords from all the years ago when I first got them, when we were putting together all the patterns. I think the bun type pommel was one of the ones also seen with this distinct 'pommel ring' which seems to have paralleled the method of guard attachment to top of grip below pommel. As the typical dragoon swords from c. 1707 had been basket hilts, and these were being produced by various cutlers usually using Solingen import blades, it would seem likely that this characteristic feature would be the inclination of many. As Jeffries , we know was producing basket hilts in 1759 when the light dragoon system was being initiated, and it seems plausible that he may have employed this ring type feature in his 'other' hilts for the new light units. We have established that the 15th, the first unit, had chosen a recurved guard hilt favoring certain hunting hanger types of the period, but those for the subsequent units, the 16th and 17th are not clear at this point. Thank you again for entering here, as your knowledge on British swords is unparalleled and I really look forward to your insights!!!!! You're right on the white paint!!!!! That the ?????? Auugghh! All the best, Godspeed and stay safe over there, Jim