Tombak Opinions Wanted

Tim Simmons · 18th May 2006, 08:15 PM

Is that it then? Just oil it once in a while. I thought there was a special staining yet to do.

Rick · 18th May 2006, 08:25 PM

Oiling would be good unless you want to play with *arsenic* .

* which reminds me of an old joke about how the Barber killed his Wife with a rusty razor ...

/are you reading this Jose ?

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2006, 10:00 PM

Tim, this blade is well on the way to being clean, but it is not yet clean enough to stain.

Every bit of rust must be removed.

If you go ahead and stain in this half clean condition you may not get a satisfactory finish.

A 10X loupe is too high a magnification for the job of picking out the rust from the pits. I suggest you try a 2.5X, or 3X, machinists loupe. I find I can work with one of these for very extended periods. Another way to go is an illuminated magnifier, or a pair of magnifying glasses.

You can also attack those tiny remaining bits of rust with hydrochloric acid. Just a drop at a time, and wait while it works, then wash off, and possibly kill it. If you use the hydrochloric, follow with another day or so in the pineapple juice.

Do not be in a hurry to get this job done.

Seven to ten days in pineapple juice is about usual for a blade in the condition your blade was in before you started.

I once spent over six months, working most week nights for an hour or so at picking the rust out of the pits in a Bali blade. If you want a job you can be proud of, you must work slowly and carefully.

When you do get this blade clean, and if you decide to go ahead with the arsenic stain, give it a really good polish with steel wool and a powder sink cleaner before you start. The blade must be white before you commence to stain.

Regarding the metuk.
As a generality, a lower quality tombak will have a metuk that is forged as a part of the blade, not a separately made and mechanically attached metuk. A village quality metuk will nearly always have this type of one piece construction, or sometimes with no metuk at all.
It is not necessarily related to age, although most recently made tombak do seem to have the integral metuk.
Note that I am talking in generalities. It is entirely possible for an old, good quality tombak to have an integral metuk, however, this is rare.

Tim Simmons · 18th May 2006, 10:27 PM

Listen to me talking like an expert

. If I remember correctly from my old metalwork days, I was always told to keep the iron tongs out of the pickle as iron slowly neutralises the acid. Each day of the cleaning of this blade I changed the juice. I dare say one could take this further, but for the time being I am happy the way it is now. My conclusion on all this is that, as this sort of treatment is accepted and indeed expected in the objects cultural origins, it is okay to do so but to fiddle like this with old blades just because they are "East Asian" might make you a vandal!!!

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2006, 10:40 PM

Tim, its your blade, and if you are happy with it as it is, please forgive me my previous comments.

Changing the pineapple juice every day is unnecessary. I use the same juice from day one to day ten. In warm weather you can get some very interesting cultures on the surface of the juice. I have sometimes wondered if they might get up and walk away overnight.

I`m sorry, but I do not understand your "vandal" remark.

Can you elucidate?

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2006, 07:14 AM

If I carry on where do you get the staining substance that contains the arsenic and how is it used?

I only say vandal as a sweeping gibe at inappropriate care for antique objects, cleaning, polishing etc.

A. G. Maisey · 19th May 2006, 08:32 AM

Tim, what you need to continue with staining is laboratory quality white arsenic,ie: arsenic trioxide.The manner in which to use it is buried somewhere on this Forum, perhaps somebody else may be able to assist you with this, or, if you care to email me I will send the instructions to you.

I have no idea what the restrictions applying to this substance are in UK. I am located in Australia, and here it is necessary to be HAZCHEM certificated, and demonstrate need to use the substance.You would need to make your own enquiries relevant to the place in which you live.

Thank you for your clarification of the vandal remark.
Yes, it is very easy to take the wrong track on antiques restoration or conservation.However, in the case of items of wesi aji, correctly cleaning and staining these items is not only appropriate, but requisite.

If you have followed my instructions, you are not in any way behaving like a vandal. I have recieved training in this art from a gentleman who thirty years ago was entrusted with the care of the Jogjakarta Kraton pusakas, I have recieved training from Empu Suparman Supawijaya, and I have recieved training from Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally, I have more than forty years experience in the staining of blades, and have trained conservators at museums in this art. If you follow my instructions you will be behaving in an entirely appropriate manner.

18th May 2006, 08:15 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Is that it then? Just oil it once in a while. I thought there was a special staining yet to do.

18th May 2006, 08:25 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Oiling would be good unless you want to play with arsenic . * which reminds me of an old joke about how the Barber killed his Wife with a rusty razor ... /are you reading this Jose ?

18th May 2006, 10:00 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Tim, this blade is well on the way to being clean, but it is not yet clean enough to stain. Every bit of rust must be removed. If you go ahead and stain in this half clean condition you may not get a satisfactory finish. A 10X loupe is too high a magnification for the job of picking out the rust from the pits. I suggest you try a 2.5X, or 3X, machinists loupe. I find I can work with one of these for very extended periods. Another way to go is an illuminated magnifier, or a pair of magnifying glasses. You can also attack those tiny remaining bits of rust with hydrochloric acid. Just a drop at a time, and wait while it works, then wash off, and possibly kill it. If you use the hydrochloric, follow with another day or so in the pineapple juice. Do not be in a hurry to get this job done. Seven to ten days in pineapple juice is about usual for a blade in the condition your blade was in before you started. I once spent over six months, working most week nights for an hour or so at picking the rust out of the pits in a Bali blade. If you want a job you can be proud of, you must work slowly and carefully. When you do get this blade clean, and if you decide to go ahead with the arsenic stain, give it a really good polish with steel wool and a powder sink cleaner before you start. The blade must be white before you commence to stain. Regarding the metuk. As a generality, a lower quality tombak will have a metuk that is forged as a part of the blade, not a separately made and mechanically attached metuk. A village quality metuk will nearly always have this type of one piece construction, or sometimes with no metuk at all. It is not necessarily related to age, although most recently made tombak do seem to have the integral metuk. Note that I am talking in generalities. It is entirely possible for an old, good quality tombak to have an integral metuk, however, this is rare.

18th May 2006, 10:27 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Listen to me talking like an expert . If I remember correctly from my old metalwork days, I was always told to keep the iron tongs out of the pickle as iron slowly neutralises the acid. Each day of the cleaning of this blade I changed the juice. I dare say one could take this further, but for the time being I am happy the way it is now. My conclusion on all this is that, as this sort of treatment is accepted and indeed expected in the objects cultural origins, it is okay to do so but to fiddle like this with old blades just because they are "East Asian" might make you a vandal!!!

18th May 2006, 10:40 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Tim, its your blade, and if you are happy with it as it is, please forgive me my previous comments. Changing the pineapple juice every day is unnecessary. I use the same juice from day one to day ten. In warm weather you can get some very interesting cultures on the surface of the juice. I have sometimes wondered if they might get up and walk away overnight. I`m sorry, but I do not understand your "vandal" remark. Can you elucidate?

19th May 2006, 07:14 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	If I carry on where do you get the staining substance that contains the arsenic and how is it used? I only say vandal as a sweeping gibe at inappropriate care for antique objects, cleaning, polishing etc.

19th May 2006, 08:32 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Tim, what you need to continue with staining is laboratory quality white arsenic,ie: arsenic trioxide.The manner in which to use it is buried somewhere on this Forum, perhaps somebody else may be able to assist you with this, or, if you care to email me I will send the instructions to you. I have no idea what the restrictions applying to this substance are in UK. I am located in Australia, and here it is necessary to be HAZCHEM certificated, and demonstrate need to use the substance.You would need to make your own enquiries relevant to the place in which you live. Thank you for your clarification of the vandal remark. Yes, it is very easy to take the wrong track on antiques restoration or conservation.However, in the case of items of wesi aji, correctly cleaning and staining these items is not only appropriate, but requisite. If you have followed my instructions, you are not in any way behaving like a vandal. I have recieved training in this art from a gentleman who thirty years ago was entrusted with the care of the Jogjakarta Kraton pusakas, I have recieved training from Empu Suparman Supawijaya, and I have recieved training from Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, additionally, I have more than forty years experience in the staining of blades, and have trained conservators at museums in this art. If you follow my instructions you will be behaving in an entirely appropriate manner.