eBay keris... are these Kraton pieces?

Alam Shah · 18th May 2006, 11:13 AM

1) Antique Yogya Palace Guard Keris?

Labelled: Antique Yogya Palace Guard Keris w/ Silver Sheath kris
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=7413217886&id=

Excerpt: "Handle might be more recently added."

A yogya palace guard, sporting a Solonese hilt....hmmm?
Possibly a recently replaced hilt?

2) 19th Century Yogjakarta Keraton Keris?

Labelled: 19th C Yogya Keraton Keris kris dagger Java short swor
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=7413217864&id=

Excerpt: "It has a brass cover with the Yogjakarta Keraton (palace) logo."

Keraton logo on the pendok doesn't mean a keraton piece, right? I was told that pendok with keraton logo are readily available, for purchase.

As I'm new to keris, kindly guide me along. Are these keraton (palace) pieces?

VVV · 18th May 2006, 11:26 AM

Maybe it's "Keraton-style"?
At hotels you can also purchase a night in the President's Suite without being a President...

Michael

nechesh · 18th May 2006, 09:06 PM

hhhmmmm......

doecon · 19th May 2006, 02:42 AM

Thanks Alam for sharing

Since I’m the seller of these keris I try to give you some insight of what I know about the items.

a. The description of the Keris is accurate when it comes to age, material etc. So the first one mentioned is indeed with silver cover and both are indeed of the age mentioned (at least). I don’t see the point in deliberately misleading people, as you might see in other auctions. You can clearly see from the pictures that these pendok are old, and they are indeed.

b. Origin or makers information isn’t always available, so I stick with what I have. Both keris came from Yogja and where described as such. The silver pendok could have been from Solo, but fortunately I have a Pedang Sabet with similar silver carved scabbard, coming from Yogja as well. Therefore it became Yogja.

c. Regarding the handle. My blades are being sold as is. Meaning that I kept all as much as original. A Yogja keris with solo hilt is not uncommon, some of my java blades even came with madura hilts. Since blades obviously survive longer, it isn’t so strange to find these combinations. (and I’m sure you are aware of that)

d. The title contains the word Keraton, but the description itself points in what way its used. I think it’s very clear.

I’m seriously scaling down a large part of the blades I have. eBay is a usefull channel to share my items with others. Since these are nice keris, I’m very sure the new owners of these blades are happy as well. (just check the ending prices).

Alam Shah · 19th May 2006, 03:44 AM

Hi doecon,

Thank you for responding. What I meant was (and still is), for the 1st piece was it owned by a palace guard? And for the 2nd piece, was it a keraton commissioned piece, or ever used at the keraton?

My response to your comments:
a) Material-wise, I guess it's specified adequately...

b) So, it's more of assumption, is it?

c) "Therefore it became Yogja." you mean attribution can be changed from Solo to Yogya? For the Solo hilt, for common keris use, perhaps. But for palace guard or keraton piece, why would a Solo hilt be used?

d) Are you implying that pieces which have the keraton word or insignia, are keraton pieces?

If the provenance is not true or based solely on assumptions, then it should be stated otherwise. When an absolute term is used when it's only an assumption, wouldn't it be misleading?

doecon · 19th May 2006, 05:47 AM

Ok Alam, I will try to answer;

a) Yes, agreed

b) Yes, it can be called an assumption. If I would know where Wuryadara Karyapa lived it wouldn’t be (see name description on the back).

c) Was b) see before. And yes the description mentioned that the handle was probably added later. Now idea why a solo style hilt was used.

d) I’m not implying anything. The title mentioned the word Keraton, the description explains why. Of course I’m not assuming that all keris dressed in pendok with keraton insigne are actually being Keraton keris. I don’t see I said anything like that ? However, regarding older pendok (1800’s with fine silver carving work in this case) I think its save to believe that there is a link between the holder of the keris and the Keraton.

In case a seller gives wrong information with the purpose of increasing the “value” of his items, I would call it misleading (please do compare our descriptions with others).

I’m being pretty much straightforward about my blades, I don’t lie about age or material used. So if something is old we will add that, if something is new or recent, you will clearly see that in the descriptions. On top of that I try to put as many pictures as possible, so everybody can see for themselves.

Regarding origin and provenance we can’t always be sure. For most blades complete information about former owners is missing, simply unknown or unclear. In my opinion it can not be called “misleading” in case you try to fill in some information about the items history.

18th May 2006, 11:13 AM	#1
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	eBay keris... are these Kraton pieces? 1) Antique Yogya Palace Guard Keris? Labelled: Antique Yogya Palace Guard Keris w/ Silver Sheath kris http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=7413217886&id= Excerpt: "Handle might be more recently added." A yogya palace guard, sporting a Solonese hilt....hmmm? Possibly a recently replaced hilt? 2) 19th Century Yogjakarta Keraton Keris? Labelled: 19th C Yogya Keraton Keris kris dagger Java short swor http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=7413217864&id= Excerpt: "It has a brass cover with the Yogjakarta Keraton (palace) logo." Keraton logo on the pendok doesn't mean a keraton piece, right? I was told that pendok with keraton logo are readily available, for purchase. As I'm new to keris, kindly guide me along. Are these keraton (palace) pieces?

18th May 2006, 11:26 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Maybe it's "Keraton-style"? At hotels you can also purchase a night in the President's Suite without being a President... Michael

18th May 2006, 09:06 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	hhhmmmm......

19th May 2006, 02:42 AM	#4
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Thanks Alam for sharing Since I’m the seller of these keris I try to give you some insight of what I know about the items. a. The description of the Keris is accurate when it comes to age, material etc. So the first one mentioned is indeed with silver cover and both are indeed of the age mentioned (at least). I don’t see the point in deliberately misleading people, as you might see in other auctions. You can clearly see from the pictures that these pendok are old, and they are indeed. b. Origin or makers information isn’t always available, so I stick with what I have. Both keris came from Yogja and where described as such. The silver pendok could have been from Solo, but fortunately I have a Pedang Sabet with similar silver carved scabbard, coming from Yogja as well. Therefore it became Yogja. c. Regarding the handle. My blades are being sold as is. Meaning that I kept all as much as original. A Yogja keris with solo hilt is not uncommon, some of my java blades even came with madura hilts. Since blades obviously survive longer, it isn’t so strange to find these combinations. (and I’m sure you are aware of that) d. The title contains the word Keraton, but the description itself points in what way its used. I think it’s very clear. I’m seriously scaling down a large part of the blades I have. eBay is a usefull channel to share my items with others. Since these are nice keris, I’m very sure the new owners of these blades are happy as well. (just check the ending prices).

19th May 2006, 03:44 AM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi doecon, Thank you for responding. What I meant was (and still is), for the 1st piece was it owned by a palace guard? And for the 2nd piece, was it a keraton commissioned piece, or ever used at the keraton? My response to your comments: a) Material-wise, I guess it's specified adequately... b) So, it's more of assumption, is it? c) "Therefore it became Yogja." you mean attribution can be changed from Solo to Yogya? For the Solo hilt, for common keris use, perhaps. But for palace guard or keraton piece, why would a Solo hilt be used? d) Are you implying that pieces which have the keraton word or insignia, are keraton pieces? If the provenance is not true or based solely on assumptions, then it should be stated otherwise. When an absolute term is used when it's only an assumption, wouldn't it be misleading?

19th May 2006, 05:47 AM	#6
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Ok Alam, I will try to answer; a) Yes, agreed b) Yes, it can be called an assumption. If I would know where Wuryadara Karyapa lived it wouldn’t be (see name description on the back). c) Was b) see before. And yes the description mentioned that the handle was probably added later. Now idea why a solo style hilt was used. d) I’m not implying anything. The title mentioned the word Keraton, the description explains why. Of course I’m not assuming that all keris dressed in pendok with keraton insigne are actually being Keraton keris. I don’t see I said anything like that ? However, regarding older pendok (1800’s with fine silver carving work in this case) I think its save to believe that there is a link between the holder of the keris and the Keraton. In case a seller gives wrong information with the purpose of increasing the “value” of his items, I would call it misleading (please do compare our descriptions with others). I’m being pretty much straightforward about my blades, I don’t lie about age or material used. So if something is old we will add that, if something is new or recent, you will clearly see that in the descriptions. On top of that I try to put as many pictures as possible, so everybody can see for themselves. Regarding origin and provenance we can’t always be sure. For most blades complete information about former owners is missing, simply unknown or unclear. In my opinion it can not be called “misleading” in case you try to fill in some information about the items history.