Caravaggio - paintings of armor and edged weapons 1590s-1610

Jim McDougall · 22nd August 2020, 02:47 AM

Great thread Shayde, and good to see the interest in classic art as a medium in identifying the period of use of certain forms and the elements of the hilts.
Naturally there is always the caution with 'license' and use of contemporary examples placed in historic periods of long before, such as Rembrandt using modern ethnographic weapons in Biblical scenes, not the case here obviously but just noting in art used in this way.

As Carvaggio was an avid brawler and duelist he was quite familiar with the weaponry around in his time (1571-1610) and given his penchant for detail it would seem that he would portray these accurately.
As always, many forms remained around for long periods and often as heirlooms, so the notion of 'antiquated' forms being present, even with the more current types in the same context.

It seems I recall reading about Rembrandt's "Night Watch" painting, the militia unit depicted is noted to be using 'antiquated' types of guns etc. Naturally the painting (not actually titled 'Night Watch', but the name of the town guard unit) faiithfully showed the heirloom or older types of weapon the men used. They of course furnished thier own arms.

As AVB Norman ("The Rapier and the Small sword", 1980) noted in his outstanding work which he used art work (mostly portraits) to establish date range for various hilt styles, portraits tended to be more reliable as the subject typically wore his own weapon. Though not infallible, it seemed pretty well placed.

It seems that his instances of the gruesome beheadings etc he was reacting to the sentence of same leveled at him as a sentence for one of his crimes in brawling, which gave legal permission to anyone to carry out on him if found.

On another note, elements of armor much as with weapons were often mixed together irrespective of proper matching obviously, as damaged or unserviceable were replaced with what was available.
It was not at all unusual in these historic times for men to be outfitted in incongruent assemblage of pieces, perhaps even to the degree of Cervantes' "Don Quixote".

These works of art give us wonderful context for the weapons often in our collections, adding so much to appreciation.

corrado26 · 22nd August 2020, 07:59 AM

Looking at these masterly painted works of art I wonder why the artist preferred painting these terrible and cruel themes instead of themes of beauty or daily life. If this has been the normal sight of things in the 15th and 16th century - cruelty, blood, pain, torture, this was a really bad time for mankind. The more as people were prepared to give lots of money for this kind of art. I am really glad not to have been born in these centuries.

Jim McDougall · 22nd August 2020, 05:54 PM

The observation on the very dark themes often seen in many classic works of art does seem to reflect the more sinister elements of humanity which were certainly prevalent then. As noted, it would seem that although these very negative, even gruesome events were certainly present , one wonders why an artist would not choose beauty over darkness.

From what I have understood on Carvaggio, he was a dark man, often brutish, prone to violence, brawls and indeed 'darkness'. It seems ironic that his beautifully painted works used the almost paradoxical manner of painting called chiaroscuro, a dramatic contrast of light and dark. Perhaps he saw irony and contrast in his artists perception of beauty, entwined in the darkness within him.

It has long been debated on the true cause of his death, but a notably held theory is that lead poisoning was the culprit. His times were indeed violent (but not sure that any more so than our own) but as with most people, the manner of dealing with them is as diverse as humanity itself. With him, he seemed to steer headlong into the violence.

With the famed Spanish painter Goya, his early works were beautiful with landscapes and other lighter themes. As time went on and war raged, his entire demeanor changed with an overpowering darkness in his work.
The theory again was lead poisoning in addition to illnesses, typically syphilis,which often aligned with similar symptoms in lead poisoning.

While observing here the weapons portrayed in Carvaggio's works, it is interesting to see how these forms were actually in use in these times, which were indeed dark as the themes show. This is quite in contrast to the romantically colorful and heroic portrayals in literature and film of swashbuckling figures dashingly using such weapons.

Also, I would note again that Carvaggio toward his demise, quite literally had 'a price on his head', as he had been indicted in a crime where the sentence was dictated as beheading and the bounty was out to anyone who could carry it out.
With this, the decapitations are allegorical using historic figures but in Carvaggio's own likeness. These kinds of interpretive elements are truly the intrigue of art study.........very much as in the study of arms, VIA the weapons as used in thier own historic settings.

shayde78 · 23rd August 2020, 03:16 PM

Excellent insights, Jim, and always appreciated.
Corrado, as for the brutal subject matter, to be fair, this is a subset of works specifically selected because they depicted arms and armor. As such, there is an over representation of violence portrayed. Unlike us modern collectors, to the audiences of the day, depicting weapons came with the expectation of depicting their intended use. These were not benign objects of art. They were utilitarian tools that were often nicely embellished.
Even considering this skewing, it is worth bearing in mind that the average European of the period would have extensive, first hand exposure to the ravages of warfare and otherwise violent death. Unlike today, almost everyone would have seen casualties of war, victims of executions, etc. While maybe not entirely desensitized to these images, these scenes would have been part of everyday life. Viewing these images thru our modern lens when even the meat we eat comes in sanitized plastic wrap and most of us have never had a front row seat to violence and/or war they seem unnecessarily brutal. However, anything less in 1600 would have been jarringly unrealistic. That said, despite his brutish character, not all of Caravaggio's works depicts this subject matter, and some are quite beautiful.

fernando · 23rd August 2020, 03:43 PM

Thank you shayde78, for sharing pictures of such fascinating paintings, that you have uploaded with immense quality.

I follow Udo's words in that this artist painted with incomparable expertise; yet he was owner of a disturbed mind. It seems as his skills competed between his brush and his sword. He did not die painting but in result of a fight

.

shayde78 · 24th August 2020, 04:58 PM

Wouldn't you know it - I was missing the first page of my notes and didn't include a number of works with the original postings. Apologies, as now these will be out of order since they represent his earlier works.

Here, we have two paintings of the same theme and produced about a year apart. They are both titled 'The Fortune Teller'. The first is from 1595/96, and the second from 1596/97

Lovely swept hilt depicted in both. One interesting detail, I believe the young man is carrying his gloves in the basket of the hilt. Such a convenient place to keep them that I am certain this was common, although I've never considered it before.

shayde78 · 24th August 2020, 05:04 PM

St. Catherine of Alexandria; 1597

St. Catherine of Alexandria was the patron saint of teachers, archivists, and all things related to wisdom and learning. She would make a good mascot for this forum!

She famously 'sparred' verbally with the court intellectuals of a pre-Christian Roman Emperor as part of her efforts to convert him. I wonder if this is why she is depicted with a rapier in this image.

fernando · 24th August 2020, 05:07 PM

Fascinating !

shayde78 · 24th August 2020, 05:09 PM

The Calling of St. Mathew; c. 1599/1600

I can't believe I forgot this. THIS is the image that my Art History professor used to introduce us to Caravaggio's work, and therefore, forms the basis of my introduction to his style.

A simple rapier is seen hanging from the belt of the one figure. As I have often wondered how one sat with a 3+ foot blade suspended from your waist, this scene, at the least, demonstrates the utility of benches, stools, and other seating options without backs.

Philip · 25th August 2020, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

St. Catherine of Alexandria; 1597

St. Catherine of Alexandria was the patron saint of teachers, archivists, and all things related to wisdom and learning. She would make a good mascot for this forum!

She famously 'sparred' verbally with the court intellectuals of a pre-Christian Roman Emperor as part of her efforts to convert him. I wonder if this is why she is depicted with a rapier in this image.

She was martyred by being broken on a spiked wheel, so this is why iconography always show her standing next to a wheel, in this case shown broken as an allegory of the triumph of Faith. Centuries afterward, a type of firework which rotates in the sky became known as the Catherine Wheel; there are a number of pubs of that name in Britain -- Fondly do I remember the one on Kensington Church St in London, just down the road from Michael German's antique arms and militaria shop, and Robert Hales' former gallery where he held forth with ethnographica and Oriental arms... Just the place to slake the thirst with a pint or two of Fullers London Pride after looking at antique arms for an afternoon and possibly making a purchase!

Philip · 25th August 2020, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you shayde78, for sharing pictures of such fascinating paintings, that you have uploaded with immense quality.

I follow Udo's words in that this artist painted with incomparable expertise; yet he was owner of a disturbed mind. It seems as his skills competed between his brush and his sword. He did not die painting but in result of a fight

.

The artist, whose real name was Michelangelo Merisi, died a tormented man indeed. According to one account he was on the lam trying to escape a murder charge arising from the brawl that you reference. It wasn't the first time, in an earlier case he had beaten the rap thanks to intervention by well-placed friends in the Church.

This guy was nobody's angel -- tavern brawler, heavy drinker, with a sexual appetite on both sides of the aisle. (For the tender and erotic side of his creative nature, see his "Boy with a Basket of Fruit" which was exhibited at the Getty Center in LA a few years ago - 180 degrees from the works depicted on this thread.) Goes to show that the line between genius and madness is thin indeed. His command of light and shadow took Western art in a new direction and eventually went far beyond painting into the realm of motion pictures in our era.

Philip · 25th August 2020, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Looking at these masterly painted works of art I wonder why the artist preferred painting these terrible and cruel themes instead of themes of beauty or daily life. If this has been the normal sight of things in the 15th and 16th century - cruelty, blood, pain, torture, this was a really bad time for mankind. The more as people were prepared to give lots of money for this kind of art. I am really glad not to have been born in these centuries.

I don't think it was gratuitous, the way many of us moderns (well not necessarily me) like dark and violent movies for the sensationalism and morbid thrill. Recall that this was an age that was much more religious than ours, these scenes he painted are from Biblical and early church narratives and the text pulls no punches. The Old Testament and the Lives of the Saints were full of lessons, as graphic as some of the stories are. The Law of Moses was stern indeed, and the moral absorbed from the stories would hopefully spare the faithful the discomfort of running afoul of its commandments.

Americans who grew up in the old Southern Baptist tradition certainly remember "fire and brimstone" sermons thundering from the pulpit!

22nd August 2020, 05:54 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	The observation on the very dark themes often seen in many classic works of art does seem to reflect the more sinister elements of humanity which were certainly prevalent then. As noted, it would seem that although these very negative, even gruesome events were certainly present , one wonders why an artist would not choose beauty over darkness. From what I have understood on Carvaggio, he was a dark man, often brutish, prone to violence, brawls and indeed 'darkness'. It seems ironic that his beautifully painted works used the almost paradoxical manner of painting called chiaroscuro, a dramatic contrast of light and dark. Perhaps he saw irony and contrast in his artists perception of beauty, entwined in the darkness within him. It has long been debated on the true cause of his death, but a notably held theory is that lead poisoning was the culprit. His times were indeed violent (but not sure that any more so than our own) but as with most people, the manner of dealing with them is as diverse as humanity itself. With him, he seemed to steer headlong into the violence. With the famed Spanish painter Goya, his early works were beautiful with landscapes and other lighter themes. As time went on and war raged, his entire demeanor changed with an overpowering darkness in his work. The theory again was lead poisoning in addition to illnesses, typically syphilis,which often aligned with similar symptoms in lead poisoning. While observing here the weapons portrayed in Carvaggio's works, it is interesting to see how these forms were actually in use in these times, which were indeed dark as the themes show. This is quite in contrast to the romantically colorful and heroic portrayals in literature and film of swashbuckling figures dashingly using such weapons. Also, I would note again that Carvaggio toward his demise, quite literally had 'a price on his head', as he had been indicted in a crime where the sentence was dictated as beheading and the bounty was out to anyone who could carry it out. With this, the decapitations are allegorical using historic figures but in Carvaggio's own likeness. These kinds of interpretive elements are truly the intrigue of art study.........very much as in the study of arms, VIA the weapons as used in thier own historic settings. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd August 2020 at 07:30 PM.

24th August 2020, 04:58 PM	#6
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	The Fortune Teller; c. 1595 - 1597 Wouldn't you know it - I was missing the first page of my notes and didn't include a number of works with the original postings. Apologies, as now these will be out of order since they represent his earlier works. Here, we have two paintings of the same theme and produced about a year apart. They are both titled 'The Fortune Teller'. The first is from 1595/96, and the second from 1596/97 Lovely swept hilt depicted in both. One interesting detail, I believe the young man is carrying his gloves in the basket of the hilt. Such a convenient place to keep them that I am certain this was common, although I've never considered it before. Attached Images

24th August 2020, 05:04 PM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	St. Catherine of Alexandria; 1597 St. Catherine of Alexandria; 1597 St. Catherine of Alexandria was the patron saint of teachers, archivists, and all things related to wisdom and learning. She would make a good mascot for this forum! She famously 'sparred' verbally with the court intellectuals of a pre-Christian Roman Emperor as part of her efforts to convert him. I wonder if this is why she is depicted with a rapier in this image. Attached Images

24th August 2020, 05:09 PM	#9
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	The Calling of St. Mathew; c. 1599/1600 The Calling of St. Mathew; c. 1599/1600 I can't believe I forgot this. THIS is the image that my Art History professor used to introduce us to Caravaggio's work, and therefore, forms the basis of my introduction to his style. A simple rapier is seen hanging from the belt of the one figure. As I have often wondered how one sat with a 3+ foot blade suspended from your waist, this scene, at the least, demonstrates the utility of benches, stools, and other seating options without backs. Attached Images

22nd August 2020, 02:47 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Great thread Shayde, and good to see the interest in classic art as a medium in identifying the period of use of certain forms and the elements of the hilts. Naturally there is always the caution with 'license' and use of contemporary examples placed in historic periods of long before, such as Rembrandt using modern ethnographic weapons in Biblical scenes, not the case here obviously but just noting in art used in this way. As Carvaggio was an avid brawler and duelist he was quite familiar with the weaponry around in his time (1571-1610) and given his penchant for detail it would seem that he would portray these accurately. As always, many forms remained around for long periods and often as heirlooms, so the notion of 'antiquated' forms being present, even with the more current types in the same context. It seems I recall reading about Rembrandt's "Night Watch" painting, the militia unit depicted is noted to be using 'antiquated' types of guns etc. Naturally the painting (not actually titled 'Night Watch', but the name of the town guard unit) faiithfully showed the heirloom or older types of weapon the men used. They of course furnished thier own arms. As AVB Norman ("The Rapier and the Small sword", 1980) noted in his outstanding work which he used art work (mostly portraits) to establish date range for various hilt styles, portraits tended to be more reliable as the subject typically wore his own weapon. Though not infallible, it seemed pretty well placed. It seems that his instances of the gruesome beheadings etc he was reacting to the sentence of same leveled at him as a sentence for one of his crimes in brawling, which gave legal permission to anyone to carry out on him if found. On another note, elements of armor much as with weapons were often mixed together irrespective of proper matching obviously, as damaged or unserviceable were replaced with what was available. It was not at all unusual in these historic times for men to be outfitted in incongruent assemblage of pieces, perhaps even to the degree of Cervantes' "Don Quixote". These works of art give us wonderful context for the weapons often in our collections, adding so much to appreciation.

22nd August 2020, 07:59 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Looking at these masterly painted works of art I wonder why the artist preferred painting these terrible and cruel themes instead of themes of beauty or daily life. If this has been the normal sight of things in the 15th and 16th century - cruelty, blood, pain, torture, this was a really bad time for mankind. The more as people were prepared to give lots of money for this kind of art. I am really glad not to have been born in these centuries.

23rd August 2020, 03:16 PM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Excellent insights, Jim, and always appreciated. Corrado, as for the brutal subject matter, to be fair, this is a subset of works specifically selected because they depicted arms and armor. As such, there is an over representation of violence portrayed. Unlike us modern collectors, to the audiences of the day, depicting weapons came with the expectation of depicting their intended use. These were not benign objects of art. They were utilitarian tools that were often nicely embellished. Even considering this skewing, it is worth bearing in mind that the average European of the period would have extensive, first hand exposure to the ravages of warfare and otherwise violent death. Unlike today, almost everyone would have seen casualties of war, victims of executions, etc. While maybe not entirely desensitized to these images, these scenes would have been part of everyday life. Viewing these images thru our modern lens when even the meat we eat comes in sanitized plastic wrap and most of us have never had a front row seat to violence and/or war they seem unnecessarily brutal. However, anything less in 1600 would have been jarringly unrealistic. That said, despite his brutish character, not all of Caravaggio's works depicts this subject matter, and some are quite beautiful.

23rd August 2020, 03:43 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you shayde78, for sharing pictures of such fascinating paintings, that you have uploaded with immense quality. I follow Udo's words in that this artist painted with incomparable expertise; yet he was owner of a disturbed mind. It seems as his skills competed between his brush and his sword. He did not die painting but in result of a fight .

24th August 2020, 05:07 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fascinating !