Hand and a Half Sword

Lee · 10th August 2020, 04:32 PM

Sometimes there will be a transverse difference in patination down in the lower forte like in your images reflecting different materials owing to a 'scarf' or overlapping weld where the tang is composed of a different (usually lower carbon) material. If this is the case, the location of the junction measured from the shouldering will be different on each side or will be seen just on a single side.

cornelistromp · 10th August 2020, 06:38 PM

hilt of Ulfberth's example, wallace A484

CSinTX · 12th August 2020, 04:10 AM

Ill attempt to answer questions. Point of balance is approximately 9.5cm in front of the guard. Weight is around 3.4lbs.

The indentations in the lower part on the blade are present on both sides but they are not equal on each side. That would make sense about a tang being welded on separate. It does seem there could be a difference in metals in the area.

Cornelis, do you have a link to those pictures? I cant seem to locate them on their site. Mine doesnt seem to have ever had shell guards. The shell guards in the example do look pretty unique. The piercings seem to match the pommel but are unlike anything I've seen on other swords.

More pics-

Philip · 12th August 2020, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

Ill attempt to answer questions. Point of balance is approximately 9.5cm in front of the guard. Weight is around 3.4lbs.

The indentations in the lower part on the blade are present on both sides but they are not equal on each side. That would make sense about a tang being welded on separate. It does seem there could be a difference in metals in the area.

Cornelis, do you have a link to those pictures? I cant seem to locate them on their site. Mine doesnt seem to have ever had shell guards. The shell guards in the example do look pretty unique. The piercings seem to match the pommel but are unlike anything I've seen on other swords.

More pics-

Thanks, Casey! This is a beautiful sword you have, congrats.

Yours certainly has a responsive balance. Comparing with an example in my collection which I got recently (photos are in a PDF file which I can't separate into individual images so will take some phone pics and post them later), the POB comes in at 13.5 cm in front of guard, with a total weight of 1450 gm (around 3 1/4 lb) on a 91.5 cm blade length. So the balance on mine is not as "fast" as yours but is still effective in one hand.

The close ups of your blade reveal a definite "grain" in the steel, from lamination during the forging process. If these blades were polished and etched like Oriental swords, the layering would be just as impressive (Roberto Gotti's book, Caino, (Guardia di Croce, 2011) on the blade-making industry in a town in Lombardy, has a whole chapter on the metallurgy of some 16th-17th cent. rapier blades from its forges, and the work is pretty impressive).

Regarding those indentations, after looking at the latest photos yet again, I do notice in one of the images what appears to be a different color of the metal between the indentation and the guard. A sort of brownish tone? I don't know if we're seeing the same thing. Does the color change also coincide with the indentation on the other side? (you mentioned that the sunken areas are not directly opposite). If there is an offset, then it might just indicate a lap-weld as suggested previously.

To be sure, a good way to check might be a non-invasive etchant treatment, such as degreasing the area and applying a mild acid like lime juice or a strong vinegar. A sharply delineated color or texture contrast usually indicates dissimilar alloys of iron. The area can be easily cleaned afterwards with a bit of powdered cleanser and a damp rag.

(Lap-welding of a steel blade to an iron or low-carbon steel tang in an area just ahead of the hilt was common in some non-Western cultures, notably India. Late Ottoman blades often have this feature as well, the join usually being hidden by overlaid gold or silver decoration).

I think that the guard of your sword might be earlier than the otherwise similar one on the Wallace example posted above. The pierced "shells" seem to me a later design feature.

cornelistromp · 12th August 2020, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

Cornelis, do you have a link to those pictures? I cant seem to locate them on their site. Mine doesnt seem to have ever had shell guards. The shell guards in the example do look pretty unique. The piercings seem to match the pommel but are unlike anything I've seen on other swords.

More pics-

please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wallace

best,

ulfberth · 12th August 2020, 12:45 PM

Good observation Casey, the cut out shapes on the guard shells on Cornelistrump's example are the same shape as the pommel of the sword in the Wallace Collection, so either it was born like this or as Philip pointed out its a later upgrade.
Indeed there never were guard shells in your sword rings because these are fixed in the slits or grooves and your's does not have any grooves . On swords/rapiers that have lost these scales you can clearly see the grooves were the shells were fitted. When we look at the design of your swords crossguard we can see the swung or shape of the Pappenheimer style guard , in my opinion your sword is an earlier version of the one in the Wallace Collection that later developed further upgrading it with guard shells and some more later as we all know developed further to the Pappenheimer rapier, interesting is that there are also Pappenheimer hand and a half swords. Below an example of the grooves in a guard ring that has lost a shell and some Pappenheimer guards to compare the style and shape and a hand and a half sword .

shayde78 · 13th August 2020, 02:25 AM

Ha!
Ulfberth beat me to it as I was going to reference the groves into which the plates on my Pappenheim hilt fit. Given that yours is likely late 1500s or early 1600s, and the Pappenheim around 1630, I'm not sure if such fitting of the plates developed 50 years later, but I'm fairly certain your example never had plates in the guard.

I'm curious about the flexibility of the blade you mentioned. I'm of the opinion that the blades on some of these hand-and-half swords were as flexible and lively as military rapier blades. Can you give any specs regarding this characteristic?

Overall, thank you for sharing this impressive example.

Philip · 13th August 2020, 02:49 AM

Here's the sword I referenced in my post last night. This reportedly came out of a private collection in the Netherlands, via a Scandinavian dealer. German, ca 1520-30.

Blade length: 35 7/8 in. / 91 cm
Width at guard: 1 3/4 in. / 4.6 cm
Width 2" from tip: 7/8 in. /2.4 cm
Thickness at forte: 3/16 in. / 5 mm
Hilt length: 8 3/8 in. pommel to front of quillon block
POB: 5 1/4 in. ahead of guard / 13.5 cm
Weight: 3 lb 4 oz / 1450 gm

Blade with areas of moderate old corrosion typical of age, edges with very minor distortion in areas from period sharpening (whetstone marks visible under magnification), lamellar grain of steel readily visible in places, blade and edges still straight and sharp. Grip of leather over cord, signs of wear and patina,no losses.

German cross-and-orb mark in fullers, one side with traces of latten inlay.

CSinTX · 14th August 2020, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

I'm curious about the flexibility of the blade you mentioned. I'm of the opinion that the blades on some of these hand-and-half swords were as flexible and lively as military rapier blades. Can you give any specs regarding this characteristic?

Unfortunately, I dont have a lot to compare it to or know a way to give specs. When put side by side, it is slightly less flexible than this sword- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25090

and slightly more flexible than this one- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...and+Half+Sword

To the uneducated, they might all seem to be more flexible than expected for their size. I would guess this has more to do with a thin blade cutting better than desiring flexibility but I dont know.

While discussing the blade, I would like to ask about the bottleneck where the blade gets narrower where the fuller stops. Would it likely be made this way or could this be from lots of sharpening? If made this way, does it tell us anything of origin?

10th August 2020, 04:32 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	Scarf weld? Sometimes there will be a transverse difference in patination down in the lower forte like in your images reflecting different materials owing to a 'scarf' or overlapping weld where the tang is composed of a different (usually lower carbon) material. If this is the case, the location of the junction measured from the shouldering will be different on each side or will be seen just on a single side.

10th August 2020, 06:38 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	hilt of Ulfberth's example, wallace A484 Attached Images

12th August 2020, 04:10 AM	#3
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Ill attempt to answer questions. Point of balance is approximately 9.5cm in front of the guard. Weight is around 3.4lbs. The indentations in the lower part on the blade are present on both sides but they are not equal on each side. That would make sense about a tang being welded on separate. It does seem there could be a difference in metals in the area. Cornelis, do you have a link to those pictures? I cant seem to locate them on their site. Mine doesnt seem to have ever had shell guards. The shell guards in the example do look pretty unique. The piercings seem to match the pommel but are unlike anything I've seen on other swords. More pics- Attached Images

12th August 2020, 12:45 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 426	Good observation Casey, the cut out shapes on the guard shells on Cornelistrump's example are the same shape as the pommel of the sword in the Wallace Collection, so either it was born like this or as Philip pointed out its a later upgrade. Indeed there never were guard shells in your sword rings because these are fixed in the slits or grooves and your's does not have any grooves . On swords/rapiers that have lost these scales you can clearly see the grooves were the shells were fitted. When we look at the design of your swords crossguard we can see the swung or shape of the Pappenheimer style guard , in my opinion your sword is an earlier version of the one in the Wallace Collection that later developed further upgrading it with guard shells and some more later as we all know developed further to the Pappenheimer rapier, interesting is that there are also Pappenheimer hand and a half swords. Below an example of the grooves in a guard ring that has lost a shell and some Pappenheimer guards to compare the style and shape and a hand and a half sword . Attached Images Last edited by ulfberth; 12th August 2020 at 03:21 PM.

13th August 2020, 02:49 AM	#8
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	A specimen for comparison and contrast Here's the sword I referenced in my post last night. This reportedly came out of a private collection in the Netherlands, via a Scandinavian dealer. German, ca 1520-30. Blade length: 35 7/8 in. / 91 cm Width at guard: 1 3/4 in. / 4.6 cm Width 2" from tip: 7/8 in. /2.4 cm Thickness at forte: 3/16 in. / 5 mm Hilt length: 8 3/8 in. pommel to front of quillon block POB: 5 1/4 in. ahead of guard / 13.5 cm Weight: 3 lb 4 oz / 1450 gm Blade with areas of moderate old corrosion typical of age, edges with very minor distortion in areas from period sharpening (whetstone marks visible under magnification), lamellar grain of steel readily visible in places, blade and edges still straight and sharp. Grip of leather over cord, signs of wear and patina,no losses. German cross-and-orb mark in fullers, one side with traces of latten inlay. Attached Images Last edited by Philip; 13th August 2020 at 05:48 AM. Reason: add metric equivalents

13th August 2020, 02:25 AM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Ha! Ulfberth beat me to it as I was going to reference the groves into which the plates on my Pappenheim hilt fit. Given that yours is likely late 1500s or early 1600s, and the Pappenheim around 1630, I'm not sure if such fitting of the plates developed 50 years later, but I'm fairly certain your example never had plates in the guard. I'm curious about the flexibility of the blade you mentioned. I'm of the opinion that the blades on some of these hand-and-half swords were as flexible and lively as military rapier blades. Can you give any specs regarding this characteristic? Overall, thank you for sharing this impressive example.