Research On A Mid 1st millennium BC High Carbon Sword, South India

Ian · 27th July 2020, 10:27 PM

Miloglow360,

Thanks for posting about this interesting article. We like to credit the original authors of the works we cite, so here is the relevant citation:

Park J-S, Rajan K, Ramesh R. High-carbon steel and ancient sword-making as observed in a double-edged sword from an Iron Age megalithic burial in Tamil Nadu, India. Archaeometry 62:68–80, 2020. (available online here)

I have attached larger images of the sword, which appear as Figure 1 in this article and have the following description.

Figure 1
General appearance of the double‐edged iron sword under investigation: (a) general appearance, where arrows locate the spots from which specimens were taken for metallographic examination; (b, c) magnified view of the tip and the body, respectively; and (d, e) magnified views of the hilt.

.

Mercenary · 1st August 2020, 02:17 PM

Very interesting, thanks. But, unfortunately, there is not so clear with the definition of the time period. In the case of the definition time of the burial ground, the author refers to his own articles, and radiocarbon analysis shows only delirium.

I'm sure this is an absolutely reliable study, but in some questions we need to be careful.

https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover...le30255049.ece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Aryans

Milogow360 · 2nd August 2020, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Very interesting, thanks. But, unfortunately, there is not so clear with the definition of the time period. In the case of the definition time of the burial ground, the author refers to his own articles, and radiocarbon analysis shows only delirium.

I'm sure this is an absolutely reliable study, but in some questions we need to be careful.

https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover...le30255049.ece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Aryans

If it's a megalithic culture of S. India it's pretty old. Crucible steel production is known in early on S. India and Sri Lanka. Just not in the manufacturing of something like a sword however, until now.

Recently they found a iron dagger, riveted copper hilt as well. With sheets of metal riveted together to form the hilt.

The first one is a recently found copper hilt with rivets. The rest are from an early dagger found dating 6th century BC without rivets, but similar hilt design.

https://punemirror.indiatimes.com/pu...w/68339114.cms

The hilt design is old as seen from the 2nd-1st Century BC warriors. I havent seen the hilt design again after 1st Century AD+, at least not in India.

Milogow360 · 2nd August 2020, 08:11 AM

This might be interesting to some as well. Early Iron weapons are showing up in megalithic sites in the South. It's currently a developing topic.

The hilt design in one of the swords has a similar shape to the daggers above, and the relief, statue already posted.

“Even as the survey had begun for excavation, the Centre has decided to set up a museum at Adichanallur at least now, which would tell the world about the ancientness of Tamils and their civilisation. The carbon dating conducted on the products recovered from this site in Florida labs had proved that it was at least 2,900-year-old civilization. If the excavations are done properly, the world will be surprised to see how advanced ancient Tamils’ life was,” says Mr. Kamarasu.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le30716873.ece

Carbon dating of samples excavated from the Adichanallur site in Thoothukudi district has revealed that they belonged to the period between 905 BC and 696 BC.

The March 18, 2019, carbon dating report of samples that were sent to Beta Analytic Testing Laboratory, USA, was submitted to the Madurai Bench of the Madras High Court on Thursday.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...le26737779.ece

Mercenary · 2nd August 2020, 12:04 PM

Thank you again. But the question is how old are weapons made of high-carbon steel. Ultra-high-carbon steel. Forged into a long sword.

Milogow360 · 2nd August 2020, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Thank you again. But the question is how old are weapons made of high-carbon steel. Ultra-high-carbon steel. Forged into long sword.

The site of that place is around 6th century BC as mentioned in the article. Several megalithic sites in the South are dated around that time.

The other megalithic dagger examples I gave with hilts designs that are classical as well.

Mercenary · 2nd August 2020, 03:14 PM

Oops... I got it. The sword was found by a non-archaeologist (one of the authors - R. Ramesh) at the bottom of some "pit" without any research of this pit itself or the accompanying material (we were only told about "an urn enclosed with a capstone"). But since the megalithic burials in this area "dated to the sixth century BCE or earlier" so this pit was dated to 6th century BCE too. How graceful.

The article does not meet the standards of scientific archaeological research, although one of the authors (K. Rajan) is a respected archaeologist. Just pit, just sword, just an archaeologist-enthusiast, but as result we have the oldest sword made of wootz.
Just very sad. Hope I am wrong.

27th July 2020, 10:27 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Miloglow360, Thanks for posting about this interesting article. We like to credit the original authors of the works we cite, so here is the relevant citation: Park J-S, Rajan K, Ramesh R. High-carbon steel and ancient sword-making as observed in a double-edged sword from an Iron Age megalithic burial in Tamil Nadu, India. Archaeometry 62:68–80, 2020. (available online here) I have attached larger images of the sword, which appear as Figure 1 in this article and have the following description. Figure 1 General appearance of the double‐edged iron sword under investigation: (a) general appearance, where arrows locate the spots from which specimens were taken for metallographic examination; (b, c) magnified view of the tip and the body, respectively; and (d, e) magnified views of the hilt. . Attached Images

1st August 2020, 02:17 PM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Very interesting, thanks. But, unfortunately, there is not so clear with the definition of the time period. In the case of the definition time of the burial ground, the author refers to his own articles, and radiocarbon analysis shows only delirium. I'm sure this is an absolutely reliable study, but in some questions we need to be careful. https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover...le30255049.ece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Aryans Last edited by Mercenary; 1st August 2020 at 02:50 PM.

2nd August 2020, 08:11 AM	#4
Milogow360 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 18	This might be interesting to some as well. Early Iron weapons are showing up in megalithic sites in the South. It's currently a developing topic. The hilt design in one of the swords has a similar shape to the daggers above, and the relief, statue already posted. “Even as the survey had begun for excavation, the Centre has decided to set up a museum at Adichanallur at least now, which would tell the world about the ancientness of Tamils and their civilisation. The carbon dating conducted on the products recovered from this site in Florida labs had proved that it was at least 2,900-year-old civilization. If the excavations are done properly, the world will be surprised to see how advanced ancient Tamils’ life was,” says Mr. Kamarasu. https://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...le30716873.ece Carbon dating of samples excavated from the Adichanallur site in Thoothukudi district has revealed that they belonged to the period between 905 BC and 696 BC. The March 18, 2019, carbon dating report of samples that were sent to Beta Analytic Testing Laboratory, USA, was submitted to the Madurai Bench of the Madras High Court on Thursday. https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...le26737779.ece Attached Images Last edited by Milogow360; 2nd August 2020 at 11:43 AM.

2nd August 2020, 12:04 PM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Thank you again. But the question is how old are weapons made of high-carbon steel. Ultra-high-carbon steel. Forged into a long sword. Last edited by Mercenary; 2nd August 2020 at 03:12 PM.

2nd August 2020, 03:14 PM	#7
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Oops... I got it. The sword was found by a non-archaeologist (one of the authors - R. Ramesh) at the bottom of some "pit" without any research of this pit itself or the accompanying material (we were only told about "an urn enclosed with a capstone"). But since the megalithic burials in this area "dated to the sixth century BCE or earlier" so this pit was dated to 6th century BCE too. How graceful. The article does not meet the standards of scientific archaeological research, although one of the authors (K. Rajan) is a respected archaeologist. Just pit, just sword, just an archaeologist-enthusiast, but as result we have the oldest sword made of wootz. Just very sad. Hope I am wrong. Last edited by Mercenary; 2nd August 2020 at 05:58 PM.