16th Century Style Broad Sword

Philip · 22nd July 2020, 02:16 AM

Cathey, just out of curiosity what is the point of balance on the blade? Could you please post images showing the tang peening, and the blade-to-crossguard fit?

Yvain · 22nd July 2020, 09:26 AM

I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ?

I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.

Philip · 22nd July 2020, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvain

I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ?

I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.

I think you have a point, here. The proportions of the crossguard do appear "off" in relation to what is expected for authentic examples. And it being made of bronze: as said previously, non-ferrous hilt fittings are not unknown in medieval swords but shouldn't the pommel and guard be of the same metal in such case?

As to whether this guard is a recycled and altered kaskara crossguard, I'm not a kaskara expert so won't venture a definite opinion. But, in looking at an exhibition catalog (Splendeur des Armes, Paris, 1988) in front of me, there are 2-3 kaskaras but their quillons flare out quite notably, so if sawed off shorter, the ends would still be wider than what we see here. However, I leave it to someone who knows kaskaras to tell if there is enough of a variation in their guards to fit with your suggestion. Interesting!

Yvain · 22nd July 2020, 10:23 PM

There is some medieval swords with bronze pommel and guard, or bronze pommel and steel guard (even had the chance to take a look at one myself) to benefit from the weight of the bronze and the strenght of the steel, but I've never heard of one where it's the other way around.

Regarding the guard, it could indeed be a newly made element too, but I feel like grinding excess material with a file would be way more easy than making a new guard from scratch (but again, I could be wrong, and it might be a newly made one !)

Also see : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24259 , especially figure 10 exhibiting similar globus cruciger, but also some guards that could easily be modified into what we got here.

Philip · 23rd July 2020, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvain

There is some medieval swords with bronze pommel and guard, or bronze pommel and steel guard (even had the chance to take a look at one myself) to benefit from the weight of the bronze and the strenght of the steel, but I've never heard of one where it's the other way around.
.

Very astute observation, thanks!

ulfberth · 24th July 2020, 02:40 PM

Although these type of swords is not my field 16th c is , and this is not 16th C style.
So for the description I would use"13th C style".
kind regards
Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2020, 04:13 PM

I am inclined to go along with the suggestions this sword may have certain composite elements, and may have to do with such practices of use of same from Sudanese swords, as per Oakeshott in "Records of the Medieval Sword".

As noted, the shape of the grip does resemble 'two hander' style, but it is not to say could not have been used on a more regular size in the 'bastard' sense.
Also, the pommel is with the cross fourchee and heraldic shield on the opposing side, which it seems I have seen in illustrations in Boeheim and other late 19thc. references describing 'crusades' period swords.

The blade does seem to be of unusual character as noted, and certainly the cross and orb seems so as well. This device was popularly adopted on many native kaskara blades, and seen by the tribesmen as drum and sticks, a symbol of authority or standing (Briggs, 1965).
The unusual script may be psuedo Arabic? unsure on that, but surely atypical for European application with cross and orb. The 'crusades' trophy swords from Alexandria seem to have had somewhat similar 'inscriptions'.

The guard being bronze/brass is also something seen on kaskaras, but not always. It seems there may have been apotropaic properties involved, as suggested to me by certain authorities in London. The cross section here seems unusual but not unlikely. Earlier examples may have had this beveled character, but most seemed lozenze rather than hexagonal in section.
In Darfur guards often flared at the ends in the Funj fashion of earlier 19th c. so if there is evidence of these being trimmed off..........but cannot see why.

I am surely no expert on medieval nor Sudanese swords, but these are things I have noted in my limited experience with them and research on them.

22nd July 2020, 02:16 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Cathey, just out of curiosity what is the point of balance on the blade? Could you please post images showing the tang peening, and the blade-to-crossguard fit?

22nd July 2020, 09:26 AM	#2
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	I just got an idea, does it looks like something was sawed off the guard ? Or is there even some small irregularities or differences in patina and polish ? I think it might actually be a kaskara rehilted as a medieval like sword in the XIXth, XXth century. The shape of the blade and of the guard (excluding the sawed off parts, middle langets and flared ends of the quillons), and the fact that the guard is made out of bronze (which isn't unheard of in medieval swords, but is unusual) are consistent with this hypothesis. It would explain the shape and finish of the blade (maybe even the inscription, perhaps Amharic ?) and the general proportions of the sword (guard too short, and weird blade length for an allegedly XIVth century one hander). The pommel, nut, and grip probably are of modern making.

22nd July 2020, 10:23 PM	#4
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	There is some medieval swords with bronze pommel and guard, or bronze pommel and steel guard (even had the chance to take a look at one myself) to benefit from the weight of the bronze and the strenght of the steel, but I've never heard of one where it's the other way around. Regarding the guard, it could indeed be a newly made element too, but I feel like grinding excess material with a file would be way more easy than making a new guard from scratch (but again, I could be wrong, and it might be a newly made one !) Also see : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24259 , especially figure 10 exhibiting similar globus cruciger, but also some guards that could easily be modified into what we got here.

24th July 2020, 02:40 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Although these type of swords is not my field 16th c is , and this is not 16th C style. So for the description I would use"13th C style". kind regards Ulfberth

24th July 2020, 04:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I am inclined to go along with the suggestions this sword may have certain composite elements, and may have to do with such practices of use of same from Sudanese swords, as per Oakeshott in "Records of the Medieval Sword". As noted, the shape of the grip does resemble 'two hander' style, but it is not to say could not have been used on a more regular size in the 'bastard' sense. Also, the pommel is with the cross fourchee and heraldic shield on the opposing side, which it seems I have seen in illustrations in Boeheim and other late 19thc. references describing 'crusades' period swords. The blade does seem to be of unusual character as noted, and certainly the cross and orb seems so as well. This device was popularly adopted on many native kaskara blades, and seen by the tribesmen as drum and sticks, a symbol of authority or standing (Briggs, 1965). The unusual script may be psuedo Arabic? unsure on that, but surely atypical for European application with cross and orb. The 'crusades' trophy swords from Alexandria seem to have had somewhat similar 'inscriptions'. The guard being bronze/brass is also something seen on kaskaras, but not always. It seems there may have been apotropaic properties involved, as suggested to me by certain authorities in London. The cross section here seems unusual but not unlikely. Earlier examples may have had this beveled character, but most seemed lozenze rather than hexagonal in section. In Darfur guards often flared at the ends in the Funj fashion of earlier 19th c. so if there is evidence of these being trimmed off..........but cannot see why. I am surely no expert on medieval nor Sudanese swords, but these are things I have noted in my limited experience with them and research on them.