Old Java Keris ???

A. G. Maisey · 14th July 2020, 10:20 PM

In my opinion this keris is early Jawa.

Difficult to place in time, probably a very knowledgeable Javanese enthusiast might give it as something like Kahuripan, that relates to pre-Majapahit East Jawa,which in my opinion cannot be supported by either historical or monumental evidence, but as a classification rather than a place in time, it might stand. There are things that cannot be appraised from a photograph that would need appraisal before I could give a tangguh classification.

My preference is to relate this blade to the very large Javanese blades from the North Coast that immediately followed the collapse of Majapahit and the migration of smiths to the West.

16th century seems reasonable, this would place in the 1500's, Majapahit collapsed around 1525.

17th century is too late because the Demak/Pajang/Mataram forms were dominant at that time.

15th century is too early because during the 1400's the keris was undergoing change from the old Bethok/Buda form to the Modern Keris that we know now.

Of course, if this keris were to be stripped of dress and given a good clean and then stained, most collectors would give it as Bali, I might even do so myself, and then probably place it in the 19th century. But it is not reasonable to assume a 19th century Balinese blade is going to be dressed in very old, probably damaged, North Coast Jawa dress.

EDIT
Close examination of detail cannot support very early East Jawa such as Kahuripan or Jenggolo, there are features that might be able to be aligned to Majapahit, but it would be difficult to convince most people we were looking at a Mojo blade because nobody living has ever seen one in original condition and known with certainty what they were looking at.

The overall length might prove to be a bit short for the North Coast blades I have in mind, but I think overall I need to stay with North Coast, 1500's:- size, workmanship(garap), details pretty much rule out anything else, and the dress rules out 19th century Bali.

David · 15th July 2020, 02:12 AM

Alan certainly knows better on the details, but i also would have placed this blade as Javanese. I would have said post Mojopahit. Pre seems too early to me. Seems is fairly nice condition and could use some TLC.

I'd like to see better photos of the hilt. I'm not sure it is Minang.

Gavin Nugent · 15th July 2020, 04:38 AM

Alan,

Thank you very much for your supporting insight in to this wonderful old Keris.

If COVID ever ends I'd be more happy to provide you with this Keris in the hand to enjoy. We've family in the Blue Mountains we'd like to see once this all settles down and if not too far out of the way, happy to make a detour to you.

Are there further images or details that would help you in understanding this keris from afar?

David,

Thank you for your interest. I will take some photos of this most unusual and unique hulu.

With thanks

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 15th July 2020, 05:25 AM

Thank you for your kind offer Gavin, please let me know when you're down in the Mountains and if at all possible we might be able to meet. I'm a bit of a way from Katoomba though, Huskisson area.

No, there is nothing that I could get through photos or notes that could alter my opinion much, if at all.

Bjorn · 15th July 2020, 12:11 PM

Absolutely wonderful blade, Gavin. I hope you'll share photos if you do decide to stain it or redress it.

Gavin Nugent · 16th July 2020, 05:28 AM

Alan, Thank you.

It will be a welcome trip from Springwood to your stunning part of the world... a well deserved over night beach break if you can make recommendations.

Bjorn, Thank you.

I'm not sure I ever want to disturb this current marriage of cultures. To me, as it sits, this holds history still in time and displays an important part of time in Java and Keris history.
Right or wrong, I feel it would isolate cultural context and detract from this history just to present a revamped blade that is otherwise overlooked as being 19th century Balinese

Happy to discuss pros and cons privately with any concerned persons so I may see another point of view clearer.

David, As requested, some images of the unique hulu below.

For general interest, other images are provided may or may not offer context

One next to a later Malaysian relative, a substantial 11luk Terrengannu Keris.
Another next to other Java blades I have here. The one to the right is more typical in size in my limited Java experience, the other an unusually thick and robust and seems very capable.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 17th July 2023, 03:30 AM

I was speaking with a learned gent this week about Bugis Malaysian keris and I bought this blade in to conversation.

Without any data provided by me other than three images a suspected date range Alan has indicated, it was pointed out to me he in his excitement in the first instance that he agreed with the age assessment based on the photos.

I was provided some very interesting thoughts too. He noted the steel type as being very very rare, being made from a Sulawesi iron and made into steel alloy. White carbon steel was the term used, a very pure bright crucible steel. I am certainly not versed in metallurgy but found it interesting.
The Malay term I have asked for the spelling... other here may know the term?

He noted that these were dangerously sharp like a razor, which is supported in what discourse I read on the steel type in today's knife making.

As a side not too, the steel to me in hand is light like an alloy compound. I am sure the POB and nature of the wide deep fullering has a lot to do with this, but in the hand it is much more. I have only ever experienced this type of steel with a light alloy feel once before, being in the a Georgian National treasure made by the Elizarasjvili(Eliarashvili)/Eliarov family of master smiths, that now resides in a museums care.

Further to this, he had informed me that such a blade type was not seen outside of Royal families or those very close to them.
These points got me to thinking about this blade and the bright steel and provenance.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=30

As many of you know, I have struggled with the conserve/preserve vs the restoration of keris...In many instances I have a foot in both camps, some I do, some I don't...

This is one of those that I don't believe in restoration, but rather a conserve for the future in its current state, being a looking glass in to the past, a preservation of an artefact.

I understand cultural points of view and the faith many have in if it is old make it new again, but with what Alan noted above, which added further weight to my choices to conserve, should I strip this down and follow a path of restoration, what's left.... a loose blade that may be mistaken for Bali... we all know data is rarely collected and retained across generations as things move hands... I feel it would be a shame to interrupt the story of this keris in doing so... another point was made recently to me about this subject too... it was said, we are not in the courts of old or at war with these artefacts anymore, they deserve the respect of the passage of time also... perhaps this has opened the old can of worms on this matter...

14th July 2020, 10:20 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In my opinion this keris is early Jawa. Difficult to place in time, probably a very knowledgeable Javanese enthusiast might give it as something like Kahuripan, that relates to pre-Majapahit East Jawa,which in my opinion cannot be supported by either historical or monumental evidence, but as a classification rather than a place in time, it might stand. There are things that cannot be appraised from a photograph that would need appraisal before I could give a tangguh classification. My preference is to relate this blade to the very large Javanese blades from the North Coast that immediately followed the collapse of Majapahit and the migration of smiths to the West. 16th century seems reasonable, this would place in the 1500's, Majapahit collapsed around 1525. 17th century is too late because the Demak/Pajang/Mataram forms were dominant at that time. 15th century is too early because during the 1400's the keris was undergoing change from the old Bethok/Buda form to the Modern Keris that we know now. Of course, if this keris were to be stripped of dress and given a good clean and then stained, most collectors would give it as Bali, I might even do so myself, and then probably place it in the 19th century. But it is not reasonable to assume a 19th century Balinese blade is going to be dressed in very old, probably damaged, North Coast Jawa dress. EDIT Close examination of detail cannot support very early East Jawa such as Kahuripan or Jenggolo, there are features that might be able to be aligned to Majapahit, but it would be difficult to convince most people we were looking at a Mojo blade because nobody living has ever seen one in original condition and known with certainty what they were looking at. The overall length might prove to be a bit short for the North Coast blades I have in mind, but I think overall I need to stay with North Coast, 1500's:- size, workmanship(garap), details pretty much rule out anything else, and the dress rules out 19th century Bali. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 14th July 2020 at 10:56 PM.

16th July 2020, 05:28 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Alan, Thank you. It will be a welcome trip from Springwood to your stunning part of the world... a well deserved over night beach break if you can make recommendations. Bjorn, Thank you. I'm not sure I ever want to disturb this current marriage of cultures. To me, as it sits, this holds history still in time and displays an important part of time in Java and Keris history. Right or wrong, I feel it would isolate cultural context and detract from this history just to present a revamped blade that is otherwise overlooked as being 19th century Balinese Happy to discuss pros and cons privately with any concerned persons so I may see another point of view clearer. David, As requested, some images of the unique hulu below. For general interest, other images are provided may or may not offer context One next to a later Malaysian relative, a substantial 11luk Terrengannu Keris. Another next to other Java blades I have here. The one to the right is more typical in size in my limited Java experience, the other an unusually thick and robust and seems very capable. Gavin Attached Images Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 16th July 2020 at 06:48 AM.

15th July 2020, 02:12 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Alan certainly knows better on the details, but i also would have placed this blade as Javanese. I would have said post Mojopahit. Pre seems too early to me. Seems is fairly nice condition and could use some TLC. I'd like to see better photos of the hilt. I'm not sure it is Minang.

15th July 2020, 04:38 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Alan, Thank you very much for your supporting insight in to this wonderful old Keris. If COVID ever ends I'd be more happy to provide you with this Keris in the hand to enjoy. We've family in the Blue Mountains we'd like to see once this all settles down and if not too far out of the way, happy to make a detour to you. Are there further images or details that would help you in understanding this keris from afar? David, Thank you for your interest. I will take some photos of this most unusual and unique hulu. With thanks Gavin

15th July 2020, 05:25 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you for your kind offer Gavin, please let me know when you're down in the Mountains and if at all possible we might be able to meet. I'm a bit of a way from Katoomba though, Huskisson area. No, there is nothing that I could get through photos or notes that could alter my opinion much, if at all.

15th July 2020, 12:11 PM	#5
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Absolutely wonderful blade, Gavin. I hope you'll share photos if you do decide to stain it or redress it.

17th July 2023, 03:30 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I was speaking with a learned gent this week about Bugis Malaysian keris and I bought this blade in to conversation. Without any data provided by me other than three images a suspected date range Alan has indicated, it was pointed out to me he in his excitement in the first instance that he agreed with the age assessment based on the photos. I was provided some very interesting thoughts too. He noted the steel type as being very very rare, being made from a Sulawesi iron and made into steel alloy. White carbon steel was the term used, a very pure bright crucible steel. I am certainly not versed in metallurgy but found it interesting. The Malay term I have asked for the spelling... other here may know the term? He noted that these were dangerously sharp like a razor, which is supported in what discourse I read on the steel type in today's knife making. As a side not too, the steel to me in hand is light like an alloy compound. I am sure the POB and nature of the wide deep fullering has a lot to do with this, but in the hand it is much more. I have only ever experienced this type of steel with a light alloy feel once before, being in the a Georgian National treasure made by the Elizarasjvili(Eliarashvili)/Eliarov family of master smiths, that now resides in a museums care. Further to this, he had informed me that such a blade type was not seen outside of Royal families or those very close to them. These points got me to thinking about this blade and the bright steel and provenance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=30 As many of you know, I have struggled with the conserve/preserve vs the restoration of keris...In many instances I have a foot in both camps, some I do, some I don't... This is one of those that I don't believe in restoration, but rather a conserve for the future in its current state, being a looking glass in to the past, a preservation of an artefact. I understand cultural points of view and the faith many have in if it is old make it new again, but with what Alan noted above, which added further weight to my choices to conserve, should I strip this down and follow a path of restoration, what's left.... a loose blade that may be mistaken for Bali... we all know data is rarely collected and retained across generations as things move hands... I feel it would be a shame to interrupt the story of this keris in doing so... another point was made recently to me about this subject too... it was said, we are not in the courts of old or at war with these artefacts anymore, they deserve the respect of the passage of time also... perhaps this has opened the old can of worms on this matter...